posted 01-26-2003 09:29 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lulu:
Mark Barton's picture doesn't look like a heliac arc to me. Does it look like one to anyone else?

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After further review, no. I am searching however.

posted 01-26-2003 09:43 AM            

bjb

posted 01-26-2003 09:54 AM            

quote:

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Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that they really did fall that fast. at 1200 GMT over portland at 250mb (35K ft.) the winds were blowing around 20-30 knots. A little stronger at 500mb(18K ft) 25-35 knots. Then 10-15 knots at 850mb (5K ft.) So for most of its trip to the ground, these chemicals traveled at 20-25kts. Over the course of 6hrs, that is a horizontal distance traveled of 120-150 nautical miles or about 138-170 statute miles. Darn good aim.

Now, I can tell you with much certainty, that a gas, even one that is much heavier than air will take many many hours to many days to reach the ground. In the case of contrails, if these plains were spraying something, evidence of the chemicals falling rapidly would be visually obvious. And since the contrails in queston are persistant over many hours, how can they have fallen if you can still see them at 35K ft several hours later?

These conditions over mid latitudes are actually pretty weak (as far as wind speeds go). In fact a few hundred miles east of portland on the 18th, the wind speeds would have averaged over 70kts (conservitavely). This would have hauled the chemicals over 400 miles away before reaching the ground. "Spraying" at 35K ft. is a horribly inefficient. Besides the horizontal distance to worry about, you will have spreading laterally. It is utterly impossible to target spray from this altitude.

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Let's say the protesters were out a little earlier--perhaps by 8 am--giving a 7 hour window. The above trails look lower than 35,000'. What do you think FK? Could you re-estimate using the 7 hour window and the aprox. altitude of above fat trails?

Thank you.

Glad you also agree that the projected halo of Mark's is NOT a heliac arc.

posted 01-26-2003 10:09 AM            

And I am still awaiting pictures of halos taken pre 2000 over Kelowna BC mid summer.

posted 01-26-2003 11:25 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lulu:

And I am still awaiting pictures of halos taken pre 2000 over Kelowna BC mid summer.

Thanks again FK--hope you can come up with some (:

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You will only be convince of a pic from summer of Kelowna, BC in mid-summer? I thought you didn't believe any halos exsisted before 2000. OK. I doubt I can find any for that specific location. Oh well, might as well go on to something else.

posted 01-26-2003 11:28 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lulu:
Perhaps a parhelic circle FK--but where is the accompanied circumscribed halo? I don't see it...

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They don't have to go hand in hand. See my last post on page 3.

posted 01-26-2003 11:31 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lulu:
Another picture to help with your altitude of trail guestimate FK, taken 1/18/03 40 miles south of Portland, OR at 10:10 am. The sky was blue before these trails took over...

bjb

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I'd say over 20Kft. there is an obvious deck of cirrus above that but its tuff to tell exactly how much distance is between them.

F.K.

posted 01-26-2003 11:32 AM            

I didn't notice any...

posted 01-26-2003 11:41 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lulu:
>>I thought you didn't believe any halos exsisted before 2000.<<

I didn't notice any...

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Lulu on 01-26-2003]

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so do you now believe they did based on the pics?

posted 01-26-2003 11:43 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lulu:
So over 20,000' ? How long would it take the chemicals to reach the ground FK?

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Lulu on 01-26-2003]

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As I stated in an early post, I think it would take days (maybe serveral). If it took 24 hours, the chemicals would travel many hundreds of miles away. If it only takes 6 hours, they would have reached the ground still over a hundred miles away.

F.K.

posted 01-26-2003 11:59 AM            

This is what I said to refresh >>Yes, FK, please post some halos pre 2000 above the Kelowna area taken mid-summer. That would convince me that these halos (that I witnessed on almost a daily basis, both night and day, from fall 2000 until spring 2002) are more common than thought...and just perhaps nothing sinister is going on overhead...<<

Now if halos are as common as you say then surely there are many pictures out there, including the Kelowna area, pre 2000 that show halos round the sun and moon. Please show me just one pic FK...

posted 01-26-2003 12:12 PM            

Concerning the top pic--would you say over 20,000' like the other one? Certainly well under 35,000' wouldn't you agree?

Days eh? hmmmmm

posted 01-26-2003 12:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lulu:
Wonder what made the protesters so ill then? another mystery...

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Indeed.

posted 01-26-2003 12:21 PM            

>>Concerning the top pic--would you say over 20,000' like the other one? Certainly well under 35,000' wouldn't you agree?<<

Ball's in your court FK (:

posted 01-26-2003 01:10 PM            

You seem a little tense FK--perhaps I am asking you too many questions?

I will ask this just once more--what is the guestimated altitude of the trails in the top picture?

posted 01-26-2003 01:17 PM            

Not tense yet. Ready for that first superbowl Labatts though.

Got to go for now.

to be continued...