posted 03-07-2003 07:03 AM            

Yet, the 'white noise generators' here want to keep the issue muddled so you do NOTHING! Check it out FOR YOURSELVES, then tell others. CEASE following the brainless PROPAGANDA to call everything 'conspiracy theory.' CONSPIRACIES ARE REAL AND PLENTIFUL in this administration and past ones. That's because the CONTROL is from ABOVE the orifice of president. That's why we've got these CHEMTRAIL spray programs in SEVERAL countries.

No Seeker (?? what are you seeking anyway? Certainly NOT the truth.) They're not HIDING anything, you just refuse to discuss what they've ADMITTED to!

That's OK though. As Iraq is attacked, the globalists WILL set off LARGE SCALE terrorism HERE killing MILLIONS this time. Maybe YOU or your friends or family will be included in this. Then you'll get to try to tell your creator WHY you've LIED here. Then you'll get the eternal rewards you've so richly EARNED!

posted 03-07-2003 08:01 AM            

That is where you are wrong. I will accept any actual evidence you come forward with. But you havent shown me any. Notice that you came on this thread titled "chemtrail evidences" and proceeded to talk about "Kenneth Starr who SUPPOSEDLY was to look into Klinton wrongdoings. Even though he was COMPROMISED with his own dealings with China and the whole thing was more smoke and mirrors.'"

Lets see how well you follow instruction:

1) Read Thread Title
2) Understand Thread Title
3) Act on Thread Title
4) Post Chemtrail Evidence
5) Do not talk about Kenneth Starr

posted 03-07-2003 09:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by skyhawk:
PHX-I am astounded at your level of denial. When you look up and see criss cross spray patterns, parallel patterns, or any other spray patterns for that matter,far outside normal TACAN and VOR jetways, lingering and then spreading across the sky, you do not consider this evidence?

---

PHX is not the only one who doesn't consider interesting looking contrail formation "evidence" of CT's. How do you suggest that planes get from point A to point B and from point C to point D without flying in parallel lines, criss-crossing lines, converging lines... or any other "pattern"?? Is there another dimension you would like to have planes fly in so they don't have any linear properties?

Do you think that there is one jetway across your entire field of vision? No wonder airfares costs so much, they've got to be burning a lot of fuel to get from NY to Miami with only an east-west jetway in which to fly!

posted 03-07-2003 01:32 PM            

G O V E R N M E N T H A S A D M I T T E D S P R A Y I N G F O R S E V E R A L D I F F E R E N T P R O G R A M S.

That's EVIDENCE PHX debunkie and others simply do NOT want to discuss.

They're DOING IT. They said so! Thousands have seen the difference and effects since late 1998.

Find out for YOURSELVES people. I'm speaking PAST the 'noise generators' here.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LLNews/message/2196

posted 03-07-2003 01:52 PM            

no it's not...just because the military has sprayed before for fire or viet-kong bugs does not infer a ongoing program here at home...or look at it like this old chum...just because I've been on a rollercoaster don't mean I ride them all the time...or it's my job...or my secret job ! or my secret job that everyone on the net seems to know about !

your very entertaining larry

(btw I can't stand rollercoasters)

posted 03-07-2003 03:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hitech_46253:
That's EVIDENCE PHX debunkie and others simply do NOT want to discuss.

---

I'd be glad to discuss it. But if you prefer to yell... THE GOVERNMENT HAS ADMITTED TO PATENTING A METHOD FOR DISPERSING WARM FOG USING UREA AND AMMONIA. I HAVE NOTICED A LOT OF FOG IN MY AREA LATELY AND I'LL BET IF YOU TOOK A GROUND SAMPLE YOU COULD FIND UREA AND AMMONIA (I have a dog that pees in my yard). THEREFORE THE FOG MUST BE THE GOVERNMENT TRYING TO EITHER CLOAK MY CITY, CREATE HAZARDOUS DRIVING CONDITIONS OR CONFUSE OR HARM THE PUBLIC. Or could it just be naturally occuring? Nah, the yelling explaination seems more credible, well at least sensational.

posted 03-07-2003 04:22 PM            

Using, again, my "cleaning the garage" metaphor; Just because I admit that I have cleaned my garage before does not mean I am currently cleaning it. Your confusing the past with the present.

posted 03-08-2003 06:59 AM            

Where has the technology taken us?

We're familiar with the powder contrail generator, MASS and the Welsbach patent etc., right?

What are 'we' really capable of?

Has GE really rammed Al, Ba or other elements through a cfm56?

Does the technology exist to support any of the chemtrail theories?

posted 03-08-2003 08:54 AM            

Photo by Conroy Penner, taken in the welding shop, Hangar #1, Conair Aviation, 1510 Tower St., Abbottsford, BC, 1988.

This from Conroy ~

>>Dear friends who hate chemtrails as much as I do;

I just sent this and the photo to www.carnicom.com for them to put on their website:

Here is the attached photo I promised. Feel free to share it with the world ASAP!!!!!!!!

Should anyone who reads this and sees this photo feel that this is worth any consideration or contributions to my dedication, time and effort, etc., and would also like a laser or photographic copy of the original photo, etc., I will leave that to your wise discretion. Just remember if requesting a mailed copy that it would be too easy for it to get "misplaced" by those who are behind this nonsense! I am also more than sure that everything I e-mail or say over the phone... is being recorded for their "prosperity"... Ha!

You may quote me (all or nothing) on the following with this photo (you may correct any spelling or serious grammatical errors only, and publish it only after you get my approval):

"This picture was taken in a hurry, and there are parts carts in the way. The camera points to the North West corner of that hangar. We knew this was some kind of a secret project, so I snuck the camera in so nobody would see a picture was being taken. The green tank sections are painted aluminum and the others are stainless steel for harsher chemicals like "Agent Orange" (we heard). The little tanks are for the solution for purging the system. The two green tanks on the left are for chemicals less harsh on the aluminum. All plumbing is stainless steel. The spray arms (not seen in the photo) are stainless and get attached to the trailing edge of the wings. The spray nozzles are chemical resistant metals too. This was a million-dollar prototype unit. Conair was supposed to make eleven units in total, this being the first. This was the first test unit, and they would build the other ten if this worked to the satisfaction of the USA Air Force.

Signed this date, February 8th, 2003 by the original photographer and former A.M.E. apprentice at Conair; Conroy Penner, Victoria, BC, Canada."

End of quote. If you want to see more information on this and related subjects, check out these websites: www.carnicom.com, www.rense.com, www.radarmatrix.com, http://www.guerrillanews.com www.home.earthlink.net, www.steamshovelpress.com, www.freepressinternational.com, www.enterprisemission.com, www.think-aboutit.com, www.abovetopsecret.com, www.infowa

Sincerely,

Conroy Penner<<

More from Conroy ~

>>Dear Terry,

Oxygen tanks? Well, I guess you are entitled to your opinion! I worked for the company called Conair (www.conair.ca) in 1987 and 1988, and my brother was the weldor/fabricator in charge making the delivery system. He got the job after working as an aerospace weldor/fabricator for Bristol Aerospace and Standard Aero in Winnipeg, Manitoba. I got him the job! I worked for Conair and Frontier Helicopters both as an A.M.E. I have worked in the field of mechanics and engineering for most of my 35-year working life. It's seems difficult for you to understand the truth, but it is very easy for me to tell the difference between oxygen tanks and chemical spray equipment. Conair built these for the USAF. We saw the military folks come and go and bring their own non-destructive testing technicians to test them right beside the south hangar door before loading them into the rear of Hercules C-130 aircraft. From there they hooked up the spray system to the stainless lines coming out

Have a good day!

Sincerely,

Conroy<<

Anyone care to comment on Conroy's evidence?

posted 03-08-2003 09:16 AM            

So what is it? When patents, documents, proposals, articles, etc., discuss aluminized this and that, barium this and that, etc., and the sky is whitish and not brownish, what else might you conclude?

posted 03-08-2003 10:13 AM            

Someone, pleeeeeease go down to your local airport and look at an airliner wing. EVERY SINGLE piece of equipment on the trailing edge of the wing is moveable. The Ailerons, and the Flaps run the entire length of the trailing edge. You can NOT run pipes from a tank (which wouldnt hold enough chems to produce the long contrails you see anyway) through stainless steel pipes out and out of the flaps and/or ailerons!!!

posted 03-08-2003 02:05 PM            

This is my home website where I store all of my photographs, as do many hundreds of other aviation photographers like myself. There are many, many, HUNDREDS of photos showing airliners, and airliner wings, in flight. Feel free to search the database to your hearts content until you find that magical holy grail photo showing gallons of chems pouring out of a pipe in the wing.

posted 03-08-2003 02:30 PM            

Research on "Cascade Conair" or "Conair" reveals that they are capable of design/build spray systems. Manufacturing firefighting equipment is a part of their business.

The Modular Aerial Spray Systems (MASS) assigned to the 910 Aerial squadron are used in the Hercules. Spray bars&nozzles are attached to the bottom side of the wing. It can only be "speculated" that this is the system we are looking at.
The photographer is a credible witness "and a real nice person too".

Here is a job posting for those aviation enthusiasts like myself who have too much time on their hands.

>>>Air Force Reserve, Youngstown, Ohio<<<

>>>The 910th Airlift Wing, located at the Youngstown-Warren Regional Airport in Youngstown, OH (actually Vienna, OH), is currently hiring navigators, flight engineers, pilots, and loadmasters. We fly C-130H2s and are conveniently located in northeast Ohio 1hr. from Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Akron. Part time positions are open and if you're interested in the highly challenging and specialized mission of aerial spray, positions are open in our aerial spray squadron. C-130 experience is desirable but not necessary. We are the busiest C-130 unit in the Air Force Reserve and enjoy incredible community support. Low cost of living, close proximity to sports and cultural events, and state of the art facilities.
Fill out our on line application at: http://www.afrc.af.mil/910aw/Pilotnavjobs/1HOME.asp<<<

Additional job postings can be found on the baseops site.
http://www.baseops.net/newjob.html

Entered into evidence is the requirement of personell to operate aerial spray systems.

The capability of aerial spray systems for propeller aircraft has been presented.

Chemtrail observers have indicated that jet/turbo fan etc. aircraft are responsible for chemtrails.

Opening the floor for evidence linking 'jet' aircraft/'jet' engines and the capability for aerial spraying.

posted 03-08-2003 02:45 PM            

If this was the way they were spraying, it would be horrifically obvious. Again, go look at the hundreds of thousands of photos on Airliners.net and look for spray bars and nozzels on the undersides of ANY wings. I have been watching, and photographing airliners for many years and have never seen anything remotely close to that system. I have about 15 other photographer/spotters that I photograph with down at the airport and I doubt there is any time when one of us is not watching airliners. I know right now there are at least 3 down there, and they are watching every single arrival and departure at KPHX. We take photos of each aircraft, and write down any interesting remarks about the aircrafts appearance. We are considered very "geeky" in normal circles because of our attention to airliners and specifically the detail we put into it. If they put foreign rods, bars, or nozzels underneath the wings to spray chemtrails with, there would be thousands of photos showing that circulating on the internet.

posted 03-08-2003 05:58 PM            

Statement submitted as a question!

By the results of the evidence in can be concluded the military has an aerial spray squadron.

With accurate capabilities:

Snip

Satellite technology gives aerial sprayers a boost in accuracy

August 1, 1997

By Tech. Sgt. David D. Morton

With the help of satellite technology, the Aerial Spray Division of the 910th Airlift Wing, Youngstown-Warren Regional Airport Air Reserve Station, Ohio, is moving into the space age and improving the way it carries out its mission.

Earlier this year, wing members took part in a test of the new differential global positioning system at the Avon Park Air Range in Florida. And they liked what they saw.

'It?s the most significant technological change in the history of aerial spray,
http://www.afreserve.com/news.asp?id=74

Evidence of aerial spray capability submitted.

---For those having difficulty following the thread, we are moving along to one of the real issues of required evidence.---

>>> Chemtrail observers have indicated that jet/turbo fan etc. aircraft are responsible for chemtrails.

Opening the floor for evidence linking 'jet' aircraft/'jet' engines and the capability for aerial spraying.<<<

At this point PHX it is not relevant whether the aircraft that are responsible for chemtrails look like passenger aircraft, military aircraft or hooters aircraft.

posted 03-08-2003 11:14 PM            

There are no "TACAN airways", per se. Most stand-alone TACAN stations are located on military fields and are used as terminal approach NAVAIDs (Navigational Aids), not enroute NAVAIDs. The ones used for high-altiude jet airways are combined H-class VORTAC stations (combining VOR and TACAN transmitters).

Anyhoo, PHX is right. Ground-based radio NAVAIDs are rapidly being relegated to a secondary role as GPS is taking over as the primary navigation system, and as such, aircraft are commonly operating well outside the radio navigation airways. And details are details, but only low-altitude VHF (VOR/VORTAC) airways have any kind of a corridor...4 nautical miles either side of centerline. But jet airways (those VHF routes above FL180) do not have a corridor...they are centerline of route only.

More FYI...as discussed, GPS allows aircraft to navigate outside VHF airways, but most of the newer aircraft have Flight Management Systems with a full GPS/navigation database, and they can fly VHF routes using the GPS receiver without requiring a working ground-based NAVAID. In other words, the FMS has a total database of every airfield, navigational aid, airway, departure procedure and arrival procedure in the computer, and the airplane can fly either point-to-point off established routes or on established routes with just the GPS system.

Next point. A common argument used to attack credibility of "debunkers" is the whole "if you are really who you are, then how do you have time to post on this web site"....sure. But it's such a weak arguement. On the flip side, I assume that all the "chemmies" (or most of them) are gainfully employed in some manner, so if "debunkers" can never get away from their jobs and lives to get online, then how do "chemmies" do it? Especially since they easily outpost most of the debunkers?

Yeah, yeah, I have 360-ish posts as of this writing. But I've been posting here for nearly a year. That's about a post a day. And considering that I often post about 2-3 posts each time I get online, that's really about a visit every few days. Gee, what an internet hog I am!

As for PHX...David wonders how a commercial student pilot has the time...well David, last I checked PHX isn't a military student, so his schedule is dictated largely by his own learning requirements...sorta like being in college. Civilian flight school isn't like the military where you spend 12 hours in the class room or flying, then spend another 2-3 hours studying.

When I got my private pilot's license through a civilian school, I showed up at some time in the morning, did some ground instruction for an hour or two with my instructor, flew for 1-3 hours, then had about an hour of debriefing reviewing the day's subjects. All in all, I'd come in around 8-9 in the morning and be done by early afternoon.

And flying a light airplane isn't rocket science, so I didn't study a whole lot (at least not as much as I did when I was learning how to fly the Learjet). Maybe 30 minutes to an hour each night. So the argument of "how do you find the time if you are who you say you are?" is weak...very weak. David, how do you find the time...I mean...over 1,000 posts in less than 2 1/2 years...you're averaging well over what I post! Are you not employed?

Now, Mr. Professor...I don't have to stick my neck outside of an airplane when I fly through a contrail. The air (and the contrail) enters the engine intake, and some of the air is siphoned off the compressor and fed into the cabin prressurization system. So anything that's floating around up there will wind up in the cabin.

Now I know our esteemed collegue Dr. Julian Penrod claims that jets have micro filters that would take any particulates, biologicals, what have you, out of the air. But what you don't know is Dr. Penrod doesn't know what the hell he or she is talking about, because most jet aircraft don't have filters that small to filter the air coming off the compressor stages of the engine.

I've asked for his/her qualifications or evidence to support such a reach, but since he/she is neither a pilot or an aircraft mechanic, nor has he/she probably ever seen the guts of a jet cabin air distribution system, I'm guessing all those claims are merely speculation on their part. Now, *I* am a pilot, and I *have* seen the guts of such a system exposed as our mechanics were working on it, and I haven't ever seen such a filter, nor is there one mentioned in any of our tech publications. Yet I'm just simply the ignorant dumb pilot who doesn't know what he's talking about...right? Thought so.

Post script...several months ago, it was *not* me who fully opened their mouth and inserted both feet, but the person who did mentioned that of course a jet's crew wouldn't be exposed to all that poison air...after all, they are in an air-tight tube! Well, I mentioned it must be hard to breathe after a while in that air-tight tube...then this person responded that, well, the occupants are on oxygen! Sure...when you rode on an airliner last...did you wear an O2 mask? No. But wait! They don't have to wear masks because the oxygen is pumped into the cabin! Well...if that were the case, then "back in the day" when smoking was allowed...I'd imagine that each flick of the lighter would turn the cabin into a raging inferno since everyone was sitting in a closed container full of pure O2 and CO2....

posted 03-09-2003 11:01 AM            

Lets see if you can go forward from here.

We seem to have gathered a number of very intelligent, experienced aviators on your thread PHX.

Why can't they follow a simple instruction and post information on the capabilities of jet/turbo fan etc. aircraft engines?

Posted by PHX.

Lets see how well you follow instruction:

1) Read Thread Title
2) Understand Thread Title
3) Act on Thread Title
4) Post Chemtrail Evidence
5) Do not talk about Kenneth Starr

(or yourself)

What is an aircraft engine capable of?

Display the research that shows the engines in question being used for other things than pushing aircraft through the air.

With all the engineering, aviation, scientist types onboard you'd think they'd find some relevant information to bring to your "big chemtrail evidences thread" PHX.

Unless they aren't here to contribute but rather to mis-direct.

Please submit your evidence.

posted 03-09-2003 04:25 PM            

Perhaps that equipment is used to spray something. Perhaps the photo shows other kinds of containers, such as O2 bottles, nitrogen bottles, or compressed air bottles (all are used aboard aircraft...the N2 and air bottles are often used for emergency landing gear extension systems, etc.) Maybe the spray equipment goes aboard pest control aircraft (many larger cities, as well as one squadron of the USAF operates airplanes equipped with spray tanks to get rid of bugs..but they fly fairly low, so no contrails).

In any event, the authors claim this stuff goes aboard C-130s. Fine...maybe it does. But when have you seen a photo of a C-130 leaving a contrail? None of the photos I've ever seen show a C-130. And most C-130s, except the newer J model Hercules, can climb much higher than 23,000 feet. Sure, Lockheed's performance data shows that an E model Hercules can climb to almost 30,000 feet, but in reality the 30-40 year old airplanes are just too worn out to get that high. And their climb performance rapidly goes to crap above the low 20's, so they rarely fly much higher than that.