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  The big chemtrail evidences thread (Page 5)

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Topic:   The big chemtrail evidences thread

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ICU812
Senior Member

Edmonton, Canada
100 posts, Mar 2001

posted 03-16-2003 03:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ICU812     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you hitech.

If one could access an archived radar tape from our air traffic controllers one could view 'all' the aircraft that were in the area that day and present an even larger evidence base. Archiving a reaction like this is invaluable. Your continued research and contribution is greatly appreciated.

As 'NEW' readers venture through web-sites to gain a better understanding in the 'chemtrail' phenomenon their search may bring them here.

It will quickly become obvious to the 'NEW' reader that some individuals who post aren't here to research and help others understand what's going on over their heads.

Rather, it's painfully obvious by this and other threads that some post simply to distract and mis-direct the process.

It's easy to see who's done research and who's done Tommy.

To date, the 'number' of individuals and groups that have worked towards complete disclosure of all atmospheric programs, questionable aircraft exhaust characteristics and un-common flight patterns has not been enough to make a change.

As the evidence thread grows, it is hoped that it will provide information to the 'NEW' reader that may invoke some change.

For the benefit of the 'NEW' reader and Pacer who somehow missed it.

SEARCH "Modular Aerial Spray System".

Here's one link:
The Modular Aerial Spray System
http://www.afrc.af.mil/hq/citamn/Default.html

A photo showing the under wing mount.
http://www.afrc.af.mil/hq/citamn/feb03/frontcover.html

(Archivedlink) http://w3.afrc.af.mil/units/910aw/spray/dod.af.htm

The MAS System is used to spray bugs. (hopefully pneumonia bugs)
* March 15, 2003: Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome - CDC Issues Health Alert About Atypical Pneumonia
CDC activated its emergency operations center on Friday, March 14, upon learning of several cases reported in Canada among travelers recently returned from Southeast Asia and their family members.


Additional information on UV sunscreen programs and Weather Modification programs utilizing KC-135/DC-10 type aircraft are welcome and encouraged.


How much money is spent maintaining and upgrading tanker aircraft?

Billions

This dollar value snip is from the 1998 report 'only':

"""The KC-135 maintenance is a portion of the Sacramento Air Logistics Center workload competition awarded by the Air Force to Boeing and its partner, Ogden Air Logistics Center, Utah. The total value of the combined contracted workload is approximately $1 billion over nine years.

The contracted value to Boeing of the KC-135 maintenance portion is $500 million over nine years, with the potential KC-135 value expected to double to approximately $1 billion over that time period with increased aircraft quantity and additional modification programs."""

What are the "additional modification programs"?


BOEING SITE search for ?KC-135 engine modification? http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1997/news.release.970120a.html http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1995/news.release.951010.html http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1998/news_release_980922n.htm http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1997/news_release_971111o.html http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1997/news.release.970326a.html http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2001/q2/news_release_010504n.htm
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1997/news.release.970106c.html

The floor is open for ATC reports on observations.


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Jeanie
Senior Member

North East U.S.A.
551 posts, Nov 2001

posted 03-16-2003 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jeanie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ICU812***Excellant post, great shot of the under wing aerosol spray mechanisim in the Air Force Reserve magazine. Wonder if they have more than one type of pest in mind to eradicate. hmmmmm

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PHXPilot
Your Mode C Veil is Showing


Phoenix, AZ, USA
800 posts, Jan 2003

posted 03-16-2003 06:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PHXPilot   Visit PHXPilot's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ICU, I looked through all of those links you posted at the end of your comment and not one of them has anything to do with chemtrails. Im assuming that you think they do. Would you mind explaining how these things are pertinant?

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PacerLJ35
Senior Member

Millbrook, AL, USA
456 posts, Apr 2002

posted 03-16-2003 11:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PacerLJ35   Visit PacerLJ35's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jeanie,

Considering my assigned career field is a C-130 pilot, I've never seen any underwing spray devices on any other C-130s except those used by the AFRC unit in Pennsylvania.

I find it highly ironic that ya'll blab all day about how the USAF hides its alleged spray devices or sprays stuff out the jet engines, yet here's a picture of a device that you say is perhaps part of the conspiracy and its spray system is mounted alot like a crop-duster's....exposed and completely observable for all to see.

Come to think about it, I've never seen any kind of spray system on ANY USAF aircraft outside the single AFRC C-13o unit mentioned in the article.

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hitech_46253
Senior Member

Indianapolis, IN U.S.
499 posts, May 2001

posted 03-17-2003 06:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hitech_46253   Visit hitech_46253's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think we should be doing more than 'blabing' myself. We need to be informing neighbors, talk radio, meteorologists and anybody else who will listen rather than spin our wheels with these worthless wastes of skin debunkies here.

As to C-130's, American Freedom News had a beautiful photo of a C-130 spraying 2 trails. These were coming out of the interior however and out the back open hatch. The Air Force clearly states their intention to use weather as a 'force multiplier' on their enemies. SOME people here just don't realize that THEY have been declared the enemy.

Well debunkies, you'll figure it out all too late as you see our kids led into a TRAP overseas and this country taken by Bushie's FOREIGN troops. Enjoy your starvation death in Ashcrack's detention camps.

You've EARNED IT!!
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/08.15B.ashcr.camps.htm

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CaptWalker
logic infuser


99 posts, Feb 2003

posted 03-17-2003 09:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptWalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hitech_46253:
When you see huge chemtrail concentrations in you area that are NOT CONdensation...

Hitech, you again start your entire post with CONjecture.

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CaptWalker
logic infuser


99 posts, Feb 2003

posted 03-17-2003 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptWalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by David:
I'm saying that when the plane appears the size of a Cessna >>>AT LOW ATLITUDE<<< while making trails, it is no where near that altitude. You are not the only private pilot on the board, son.

Huh? A four engine jet that looks like the size of a Cessna at low altitude... wha? It seemed to me that the first post was implying they were seeing a KC-135? Not sure what exactly the point is, but I witnessed a small commercial jet leaving CONTRAILS at EXTREMELY low altitude a week ago. The plane was so low that it already had it's gear down for approach. The plumes it left behind were incredible. It was a very damp evening with a lot of evaporation coming from the cold soil (still a little snow left). These conditions can't be common under 10,000 but have to be more common 10-20K.

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David
Chemtrail Information Agent


1290 posts, Oct 2000

posted 03-17-2003 10:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How is it capt, that you find yourself more informed than the rest of us? What makes you more of an authority on chem/contrails? What is your background that you can scoff at what is being posted here on these forums? How long have you 'studied' the phenom known as chemtrails?
You call yourself capt, in reference to what exactly, capt of industry, of boats, planes. I've heard of capts in restaurants too, I think they are in charge of the waiters.

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CaptWalker
logic infuser


99 posts, Feb 2003

posted 03-17-2003 10:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptWalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by David:
[QUOTE]Wait a minute, you guys have been saying for the last couple of years that contrails do not normally form below around 22 thou, but now you are changing that figure to 15 thousand?
My turn to laugh. hahahaha

Weather is a funny thing. It doesn't "normally" snow in April on the east coast... http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/snow_000409.html
please note that it snowed in April in 1990 and 1982 so don't try to use this as ammo for CT's changing the earth's weather pattern.

Hurricanes don't "normally" occur much before August, let alone JUNE... http://www.srh.noaa.gov/mlb/junhur.html

There aren't "normally" thunderstorms in the Arctic Circle... http://www.vision.net.au/~daly/thunder/

As I've said before, weather is not a homogenous mass, and just when you think you've seen it all, mother nature has a way of surprising you...

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hitech_46253
Senior Member

Indianapolis, IN U.S.
499 posts, May 2001

posted 03-17-2003 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hitech_46253   Visit hitech_46253's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just thought I'd pass on this update for the debunkies soon to be future home:


FEMA Detention Camps: Re-inventing the Mousetrap http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_lavello_031603_camps.html
The trap was set long ago, yet the bait hadn’t been placed… until now. We now know the lure to this elaborate trap, known as FEMA’s ‘relocation’ camps, is ‘safety’ from terrorism. Strange, to know these camps are in place doesn’t make me feel any safer. But why would anyone want to put troops on the street, and citizens in ‘camps?’ Well, this scenario has been the dream of tyrants since the dawn of man. And as history tells us, once in a ‘camp,’ people never get released - only freed or killed.

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CaptWalker
logic infuser


99 posts, Feb 2003

posted 03-17-2003 04:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptWalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hitech_46253:
Well, this scenario has been the dream of tyrants since the dawn of man. And as history tells us, once in a ‘camp,’ people never get released - only freed or killed.

And the stuff that books and movies are made of. All I needed to see was Alex Jones' puss on the top of the article to make me laugh! Does anyone really think a non-covert operation from 4 years ago is something to get worred about? Please.
http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/urbanwarrior/

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hitech_46253
Senior Member

Indianapolis, IN U.S.
499 posts, May 2001

posted 03-17-2003 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hitech_46253   Visit hitech_46253's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well if anything reveals our 'capt' as a FOOL this last statement did.

Check out Alex's info at: http://www.infowars.com and see if it doesn't make more sense than the LIES and PROPAGANDA that we're getting from our whore media.

However, this makes sense why Walker is a debunkie eh. More like a FLUNKIE! Enjoy your new residence when Georgie boy's foreign troops take ya there bud!

Texas sheriff warns of possible foreign troops http://www.sierratimes.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard//topic.cgi?forum=23&topic=108
In a March 13th letter published in the Jim Hogg County Enterprise in Hebbronville, Sheriff Erasmo Alarcon Jr. writes of, “Walkers dressed in military fatigues, with guns, and carrying professional hiking backpacks” that have been sighted in the border county with Mexico. “The witnesses state that they walk in a military type of cadence or jog. The persons are described as being fit individuals."

TX Sheriff Warns Of Foreign Troops Seen In US http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31553

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CaptWalker
logic infuser


99 posts, Feb 2003

posted 03-18-2003 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptWalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hitech_46253:
Check out Alex's info at: http://www.infowars.com and see if it doesn't make more sense than the LIES and PROPAGANDA that we're getting from our whore media.

I did and the answer is a profound NO! Alex Jones is 1000 X the whore the rest of the media is. Selling books is all he cares about. I feel sorry for anyone who takes his fiction to heart.

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David
Chemtrail Information Agent


1290 posts, Oct 2000

posted 03-18-2003 10:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Capt. did you take that photo from your real estate office window or so other location?
Just curious.

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the professor
KNOW YOUR ROLE

heartland USA
1164 posts, Jan 2003

posted 03-18-2003 11:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the professor   Visit the professor's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I saw one of Alex's videos, It's kinda hard to fake checkpoint police on our roads. It
was disturbing to watch much like reading
the captains posts.

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hitech_46253
Senior Member

Indianapolis, IN U.S.
499 posts, May 2001

posted 03-18-2003 12:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hitech_46253   Visit hitech_46253's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, this does show that the 'capt' is a LIAR or a moron with the discernment of a wet tea leaf. Alex encourages people to make multiple COPIES of videos to get the information around that our govt. was INVOLVED in 9-11 and setting up a tryannical police state. Provacateurs and FOOLS like this 'capt' here provide a smokescreen to keep PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY in play until it's too late. I can afford to be wrong, but I encourage you to check this information for YOURSELVES! I also make copies of his 9-11 tape and give them out FREE. Contrary to the debunkie mentality, SEEING IS BELIEVING! This country is rapidly becoming a police state far WORSE than NAZI Germany was. It is by the efforts of smoke screeners and 'white noise' generators like this 'capt' here that they SUCCEED! Also see:
http://sf.indymedia.org/news/ http://www.americanfreedomnews.com http://www.propagandamatrix.com http://www.newsmakingnews.com/ http://www.rense.com

Just to name a few.

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CaptWalker
logic infuser


99 posts, Feb 2003

posted 03-18-2003 01:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptWalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hitech_46253:
Well, this does show that the 'capt' is a LIAR or a moron with the discernment of a wet tea leaf. Alex encourages people to make multiple COPIES of videos to get the information around that our govt. was INVOLVED in 9-11 and setting up a tryannical police state.

I'm a liar for seeing through Alex Jones' motives? Are you telling me he doesn't sell books, videos, DVD's, T-shirts....??!!! Sure he wants you to get the word around, he sells more crap if you spread the word to more idiots. He's got to figure anyone who would believe the crap he spews second hand would certainly buy his stuff. You are completely dellusional hitech.

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Lulu
ice behaving badly

right here
2553 posts, Dec 2000

posted 03-18-2003 01:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lulu   Visit Lulu's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
>>You are completely dellusional hitech.<<

Can't argue with this statement CaptWalker!


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CaptWalker
logic infuser


99 posts, Feb 2003

posted 03-18-2003 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptWalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hitech_46253:
Well debunkies, you'll figure it out all too late as you see our kids led into a TRAP overseas and this country taken by Bushie's FOREIGN troops. Enjoy your starvation death in Ashcrack's detention camps.
You've EARNED IT!!

And in a couple weeks when Saddam has been removed, Iraq has been liberated, the stock market takes off and people are breathing a little easier, will you be here to admit that all of your Red Dawn fantasies were exactly that?

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swamp gas
Persuader of air molecules


Jersey City
1881 posts, Jun 2001

posted 03-18-2003 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swamp gas   Visit swamp gas's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CaptWalker:
And in a couple weeks when Saddam has been removed, Iraq has been liberated, the stock market takes off and people are breathing a little easier, will you be here to admit that all of your Red Dawn fantasies were exactly that?


Uh huh,
I guess you didn't hear of Russia moving 13 warships into the Red Sea? And why do die-hard far right conservatives use the word "liberated". Sounds like....liberal.


Yeah right, US kills 1/2 million Iraqis, steals it's oil, and the rest of the world drinks and goes home. Remember this, every country in the history of the planet that has pre-emptively struck another, has eventually either lost the war, or fallen as an empire. I would imagine you don't study history too closely.


BTW, ALex Jones doesn't use any CSS decryption on his DVD's, no Macrovision, and they are single-sided single density. Know what that means Captain Walker?


Oh, Fox News and Limbaugh have sponsers that give them lots of.......you know.....money. So by your definition, they must be bilking their listeners.

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the professor
KNOW YOUR ROLE

heartland USA
1164 posts, Jan 2003

posted 03-18-2003 02:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the professor   Visit the professor's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good points indeed swamp I was gonna add that people automatically think it's for profit, well there has to be a way of cost coverage, you stole my thunder.

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CaptWalker
logic infuser


99 posts, Feb 2003

posted 03-18-2003 03:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptWalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by swamp gas:
Remember this, every country in the history of the planet that has pre-emptively struck another, has eventually either lost the war, or fallen as an empire. I would imagine you don't study history too closely.

Well the US has done it once before in the late 18th century and seemed to pull it off. Just because the battle was here and not across the Atlantic, don't think that this wasn't British territory.

I'll ask you the same question, will you be here in a couple weeks when this whole thing is over to eat crow? My guess is you'll simply move on to the next problem area (N.Korea, Iran...) and say THAT's the one that will set the NWO in motion. That's OK, we'll all be here growing old together in this great country, we'll have plenty of time for you to eat it.

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swamp gas
Persuader of air molecules


Jersey City
1881 posts, Jun 2001

posted 03-18-2003 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swamp gas   Visit swamp gas's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll ask the question, do you think the rest of the world will just go to sleep and wait until this psycho administration to invade somewhere else? Do you think China and Russia are going allow this Imperialist March into their land? Do you think France and Germany will forget? China and Russia are developing fuel based on plants, and in 5 years, Europe and Asia can basically tell the US and England to grease it's ass with it's stolen oil, and shove a Tomahawk missle up it.


If you are so confident and comfortable that The Little Hitler will succeed in his "Godly Mission", why do you try and convince us "useless eaters" that we're wrong. People like you and Bush can't seem to accept that WE DON'T THINK LIKE YOU AND NEVER WILL.

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halva
Senior Member

Greece
382 posts, Apr 2003

posted 03-18-2003 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for halva   Visit halva's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If the subject of the thread is going to keep changing, you can eat this.
WH

The Idiot Prince Will Have His War
By Stan Goff

17 March 2003
From: http://www.fromthewilderness.com

[FTW asked retired U.S. Army Special Forces Master Sergeant Stan
Goff to re-examine what we can expect on the battlefield when
the United States begins its invasion. The former instructor
of military science at West Point describes a scenario that is
vastly different from what was expected last September before
the Bush administration encountered effective economic and political
opposition. Now denied the luxuries of a multi-front invasion
from Turkey and Saudi Arabia the U.S. war strategy has changed.
The bottom line is that a great many more innocent civilians
are going to be killed. And the first and possibly crippling
breakdown of U.S. plans will happen in Kurdestan. – Michael Ruppert,
Editor From The Wilderness]


*************

March 17, 2003, 1500 hrs PST (FTW) -- The full-scale, unilateral
US invasion of Iraq appears – to many – to be imminent as this
is written. In just hours President Bush is expected to give
Saddam Hussein a 72-hour ultimatum to leave the country or else
the bombs start falling. I have a reservation or two left about
that, based partly on hope, but partly on the even riskier assumption
that this administration realizes that it has miscalculated and
that the consequences of invasion may now outweigh the risks
– from their standpoint – of no invasion.

The Bush regime seems to have a clear understanding of what desperate
straits they were in well before 9-11. The empire is in decline,
and this means Americans will have to reconcile themselves to
a new world in which their profligate lifestyle becomes a thing
of the past. Americans do not understand that this is an irremediable
situation. That is why we are witnessing the beginning of what
is possibly the most dangerous period in human history.

If the administration decides miraculously in the next few days
not to invade, the most unthinkable risks will recede significantly.
But this Junta has repeatedly displayed a reckless adventurist
streak that alarms even their own political allies, and it appears
that the hotter heads will prevail.

The actual tactical situation, never terribly auspicious because
of the Kurdish wild card that receives far too little attention
(and which I will address later), has deteriorated for the US.
The denial of a ground front from both Saudi Arabia and Turkey
has completely reshuffled the tactical deck, and caused many
a sleepless night for harried commanders from Task Force Headquarters
all the way down to lonely infantry platoon leaders.

The ground attack will now go through Kuwait, a single front
across which an unbelievable series of heavy, expensive, high-maintenance
convoys will pass, many on long journeys to 18 provincial capitals,
19 military bases, 8 major oil fields, over 1,000 miles of pipeline,
key terrain along minority Shia and Kurdish regions, as well
as Baghdad. But attacking forces are not the only mechanized
ground forces.

The huge logistical trains that must consolidate objectives,
set up long-term lines of communication, and deliver daily support,
will also be held up until airheads are seized within Iraq to
augment ground transportation with airlifts of people and equipment.
This shifts a higher emphasis onto airhead seizures (and therefore
Ranger units), and forces the security of the airheads themselves
before they can become fully functional.

Baghdad may require a siege, which has already been planned,
but now that siege doesn't begin without a much lengthier invasion
timeline that depends much more heavily on airborne and airmobile
forces that can be dropped onto key facilities to hold them until
mechanized reinforcement can arrive. At this writing, the 101st
Airborne (which is actually a helicopter division) has not even
completed its deployment into the region. Sections of the 82nd
Airborne (a genuine paratroop division) are still occupying Afghanistan.

The increased dependence on airlift is further complicated by
weather. While extreme summer heat doesn't reach Iraq until May,
the pre-summer sand storms have already begun. US commanders
have pooh-poohed the effect of these storms, but they are simply
putting on a brave face for the public. Sand can be a terrible
enemy. It clogs engine intakes, just as it clogs eyes and noses,
gathers in the folds of skin, falls in food, works its way into
every conceivable piece of equipment, and takes a miserable toll
on materiel, machinery and troops. When air operations become
more critical to overall mission accomplishment, and when light
forces (like airmobile and airborne divisions) are operating
independent of heavier mechanized logistics, weather like sand
storms matters...a lot.

The order of battle is widely available on the web, and there's
no reason to recount it here. The reason is, even with all these
debilities and setbacks, the results of the invasion are certain.
Iraq will be militarily defeated and occupied. There will be
no sustained Iraqi guerrilla resistance. There will be no Stalingrad
in Baghdad. We should not buy into the US bluster about their
invincibility, but neither should we buy into Iraqi bluster.

Last September retired Marine General Paul Van Riper was selected
to play the Opposing Forces (OPFOR) Commander named Saddam Hussein
for a 3-week-long, computer simulated invasion of Iraq, called
Operation Millennium Challenge.

He defeated the entire multi-billion-dollar US electronic warfare
intelligence apparatus by sending messages via motorcycle-mounted
couriers to organize the preemptive destruction of sixteen US
ships, using pleasure vessels. At that point, the exercise controllers
repeatedly intervened and told him what to do; move these defenders
off the beach. Stop giving out commands from mosque loudspeakers.
Turn on your radar so our planes can see you. Because every time
Van Riper was left to his own devices, he was defeating the US.

While all this is surely amusing, does it really mean the Iraqis
will defeat the US during an invasion?

Certainly not. It will, however, make it far more expensive,
slow, difficult, and deadly for Iraqis.

The Iraqi military won't prevail because they can't. They are
weak, under-resourced, poorly led, and demoralized. What the
delays mean is that the US will depend on sustaining the initiative
and momentum through brutal, incessant bombing designed to destroy
every soldier, every installation, every vehicle, every field
kitchen in the Iraqi military.

War will inflict terrifying casualties on the Iraqi military.
There will be collateral damage to civilians, even with attempts
to attenuate that damage, and in case we fail to remember, soldiers
are like everyone else. They have families and loved ones.

What is uncertain is the aftermath.

This is the variable that is never factored into the thinking
of our native political lumpen-bourgeoisie; their deeds plant
the seeds of future and furious resistance.

If half million Iraqi soldiers die, and 100,000 civilians are
killed in collateral damage, we have to remember that there are
at least (for the sake of argument) five people who intensely
love each of the dead. And if we think of the grief of millions
after this slaughter, and of the conversion of that grief into
rage, and combine that with the organization of the internecine
struggles based on historical ethnic fault lines (that the Ba'ath
Party has repressed), we begin to appreciate the explosive complexity
of post-invasion Iraq.

This invasion will also ignite the fires of Arab and Muslim humiliation
and anger throughout the region.

Most importantly, in my view, there are the Kurds.

Anyone who has followed the news has heard about "Saddam's" gassing
of the Kurds. That's how it is portrayed. Nonetheless, few people
have bothered to find out what the truth is, or even to investigate
this claim.

Stephen Pelletiere was the Central Intelligence Agency's senior
political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. He was also
a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000. In both
roles, he had access to classified material from Washington related
to the Persian Gulf. In 1991, he headed an Army investigation
into Iraqi military capability. That classified report went into
great detail on Halabja.

Halabja is the Kurdish town where hundreds of people were apparently
poisoned in a chemical weapons attack in March 1988. Few Americans
even knew that much. They only have the article of religious
faith, "Saddam gassed his own people."

In fact, according to Pelletiere – an ex-CIA analyst, and hardly
a raging leftist like yours truly – the gassing occurred in the
midst of a battle between Iraqi and Iranian armed forces.

Pelletiere further notes that a "need to know" document that
circulated around the US Defense Intelligence Agency indicated
that US intelligence doesn't believe it was Iraqi chemical munitions
that killed and aimed the Kurdish residents of Halabja. It was
Iranian. The condition of the bodies indicated cyanide-based
poisoning. The Iraqis were using mustard gas in that battle.
The Iranians used cyanide.

The lack of public critical scrutiny of this and virtually all
current events is also evident on the issue of the Kurds themselves.

That issue will come out into the open, with the vast area that
is Kurdistan, with its insurgent armed bodies, overlaying Iraq,
Iran, Turkey, and even parts of Syria, which will realign the
politics and military of the entire region in yet unpredictable
ways.

As part of the effort to generate an Iraqi opposition, the US
has permitted Northern Iraqi Kurdistan to exercise a strong element
of national political autonomy since the 1991 war. This is a
double-edged sword for the US in its current war preparations,
particularly given this administration's predisposition for pissing
all over its closest allies. Iraq's Northern border is with Turkey,
who has for years favored the interests of its own Turkmens in
Southern Turkish Kurdistan at the expense of the Kurds, who have
waged a guerrilla war for self-determination against the Turks
since the 1970s.

The Partiya Karkeren Kurdistan or PKK) (Kurdish Worker's Party),
Turkish Kurds fighting for an independent Kurdish state in southeast
Turkey, was singled out on the US international terrorist organization
list several years ago, in deference to fellow NATO member, Turkey.
PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan is so popular with the Kurds that
Turkey was forced to commute his death sentence, subsequent to
his capture, to life imprisonment, for fear that his execution
would spark an uprising.

Other non-leftist Kurdish independence organizations developed
and alternatively allied with and split with the PKK and each
other. Turkey now claims that PKK bases are being constructed
in Iran, with Iranian complicity, from which to launch strikes
against Southern Turkey. Groups other than the PKK, more acceptable
to the US, predominantly the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP)
and the Kurdistan Patriotic Union (PUK) have been administering
Northern Iraqi Kurdistan as an autonomous zone under the protective
umbrella of the US no-fly zone. The Turkish government fears
the influence of this section of Kurdistan in the wake of a US
military action that topples Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath government,
because Kurds have declared their intention of declaring an independent
Kurdish state there. The Turks find this absolutely unacceptable,
and have declared forthrightly they will invade to prevent this
happening. They have also threatened to attack Kurds in Iran,
but this is a far less credible threat.

Kurdish nationalists have long experience with betrayals and
alliances of convenience, and know American perfidy very well.
They have declared at the outset that in the event of an invasion,
they will defend themselves from Turkish incursions. They are
not willing to lose the autonomy they have gained over the last
eleven years in Northern Iraq. This not only puts them at odds
with US ally Turkey, it potentially puts them at odds with the
US itself, even with US wishes that they participate in indigenous
actions against Iraqi forces. The US does not want that region
destabilized in the post-invasion period, because Kirkuk in the
East of Iraqi Kurdistan is a huge oil producing zone.

The very first complication of post-invasion Iraq will likely
be the demand that US commanders disarm the Kurds.
Northern Iraq could easily become contested terrain involving
partisan warfare between Turks, Kurds of three factions, the
Iranians, and the US, with the Syrians in a position to play
the silent interloper. This would amount to the devolution of
Northern Iraq, a key strategic region, into another Afghanistan
or Somalia. It is already straining relationships between Turkey
and the United States, NATO allies, even as the NATO alliance
itself comes under severe strain, with a Euro-American trade
war as a backdrop.

And the Kurds have the motivation, tenacity, and fighting spirit
to do those kinds of things that General Van Riper did to defeat
the Rumsfeld "Robo-Military" in Operation Millennium Challenge.

We begin to see how the Bush Junta is the equivalent of a mad
bee keeper, that no longer leaves the hive stable and merely
smokes it into a stupor to harvest the honey. It now proposes
to simply start swatting all the bees and taking the honey by
brute force.

We cannot see the war as an extricable, external phenomenon.
We have to see it as it is embedded in the larger complexities
of the whole period. When the cruise missiles fly at 400 per
day, that is 400 times $1.3 million in self-destructing technology.
30 days of this is $15.6 billion in Cruise missiles alone. This
is great news for Raytheon and Lockheed-Martin, but it is bad
news for public schools. At the antiwar demonstration in Washington
DC, March 15th, I met many more teachers, now wearing buttons
that said "money for education not war." This is a reflection
of the deepening consciousness of the American people, but one
that has not yet grasped the depth of the crisis that drives
the war. Nor does it measure how every missile's impact increases
the rage of the Southwestern Asian masses and the justifiable
anxieties of Africa and East Asia.

The real bet that Bush & Co. make on this war is that it can
secure oil at $15 a barrel, rescue dollar hegemony, gain the
ability to wage its economic war on China and Europe, and inaugurate
a fresh upwave of real profit. That will not happen.

When the invasion goes, we will certainly see plenty of images
of cheering "liberated" Iraqis. This is common after any successful
military incursion, a combination of real relief in some cases,
as we saw in the first stage of the 1994 Haiti invasion, but
also of self-defense and opportunism.

The costs incurred by the war, combined with the insane Bush
tax cuts for the rich, will deepen the Bush regime's economic
conundrums. The coming social crisis in the US will emerge against
a backdrop of elevated public expectations. The hyperbole employed
by this administration to justify this war, against rapidly strengthening
resistance and a corresponding loss of credibility outside the
indoctrinated and gullible United States, led them to warn the
public about perpetual "war on terror," but with the sugar coating
that there would be no domestic economic sacrifice. The mountain
of personal and institutional debt in the US, the threat of deflation,
the trade deficit, the overcapacity, the rising unemployment
and insecurity, all these factors will be worsened by the Bush
doctrines. And Bush, like his father before him, will go down.
Along with him, Tony Blair and Jose Maria Aznar will go down
in political flames, and it will be a long time indeed before
anyone can align themselves with the US as an ally. As in the
last elections for the Republic of Korea, candidates will find
that election victory depends on now independent one can prove
oneself of the United States.

We have had our course charted now, and the military option is
all the US ruling class really has to maintain its dominance.
After Iraq, there will certainly be increased asymmetric warfare,
"terrorism," if you will, directed at Americans, American institutions,
American targets. And when the rest of the world recognizes how
thinly spread the US military is, thinly spread physically, but
also economically because it is not a sustainable institution
in its current incarnation, rebellions will occur. They have
already started. Then the response of the weakening US will be
to lash out, often with totally unforeseeable consequences, just
as the consequences of this impending invasion are unforeseeable.

Our military might is no longer a sign of strength, and the US
military is not invincible. Its use as both first and last resort
is a sign of profound systemic weakness. That its employment
could destabilize the world, and cause us to stumble into a Third
World War is a real possibility.

We in the antiwar movement have struggled to protect the Iraqi
people. We may fail in that. But as resistance fighters in WWII
or national liberation fighters in the post-colonial era, we
must differentiate setbacks from defeat, when we suffer those
setbacks we can not be demoralized and demobilized. We will keep
our eyes on the fact that the system itself is failing and this
adventure is a symptom of that failure, and continue to work
for the political destruction of our current regime as a tactical
necessity. The perfect storm is coming. It's in the genetic code
of the system right now and inevitable. And while we don't know
how it will look, we have to keep our eyes on the prize - emancipation
from the whole system, and let that be our lodestar. Never quit.
Never. We are in the stream of history, and we have been given
a grave and momentous responsibility. Every day we delayed them
was a victory.

There is a long struggle ahead, and it will become more terrible.
But just as those before us fought slavery, apartheid, fascism,
and colonialism, we will take up our historical task with confidence
and determination, and assert our humanity against these gangsters.
Freedom is the recognition of necessity.

*************

© Copyright, 2002, From The Wilderness Publications, http://www.fromthewilderness.com.
All rights reserved. May be copied, distributed or posted on
the Internet for non-profit purposes only.]

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CaptWalker
logic infuser


99 posts, Feb 2003

posted 03-18-2003 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptWalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by swamp gas:
I guess you didn't hear of Russia moving 13 warships into the Red Sea? And why do die-hard far right conservatives use the word "liberated". Sounds like....liberal. Oh, Fox News and Limbaugh have sponsers that give them lots of.......you know.....money. So by your definition, they must be bilking their listeners.

I heard the US moving 13 warships into the Red Sea... http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=2387279

Fox News, Rush, O'Reilly, Bell, Jones.... they're ALL in the business of making money. It cracks me up that you think Alex Jones is some martyr "covering his costs" with his book and video sales, like he's riding the great white horse of freedom. HE'S THE BIGGEST WHORE OUT THERE!!

BTW, not sure what you're trying to imply by the use of the word liberated. It's used in perfect context describing what the plan is for the Iraqi people. Quite ironically, many "liberals" are opposed to liberating the Iraqi people.

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