posted 03-27-2003 03:53 PM            

I got your CTClub schpamm. It's good to hear from ya mang. Glad to see ya still webbdabblin.

How's your young family? Mine's flourishing. I'll send you an email.

Oh! I saw Bill Ray a few months ago - he's touring with Ike Turner! *laff* But he's so good now! He's Peart/Copeland/Bozzio good. No shit. He's all over the set, effortlessly, tastefully.

I'll email you now so we can talk Dad stuff.

posted 03-27-2003 04:31 PM            

Congrats, and welcome!*

posted 03-28-2003 12:13 AM            

Presented as evidence, how contrails differ from chemtrails.

"""worries everytime you see an airplane with contrails behind it"""

If there are individuals that worry 'evertime' they see an aircraft with contrails behind it, that is very sad.

Only the aircraft that leave obvious chemtrails should draw some concern.

For a minute, lets all try and think with the big head.

Is aluminum ever used in experiments relating to atmospheric sciences and how would it show up in our precipitation (or the food and water you consume)?

It seems the backdoor of the University was left open again.

Please describe for the jury where I can buy the ""Commercially available
nanoscale powder samples of aluminum oxide""

When are we going to have enough SUCCESS to take it out of the model?

Prof. Sonia Kreidenweis, advisor
Dr. Paul DeMott
Prof. William Cotton
Prof. Kristina Rinker (Chemical and Bioresource Engineering)

ICE NUCLEATION BY SURROGATES FOR ATMOSPHERIC MINERAL DUST AND MINERAL
DUST/SULFATE PARTICLES AT CIRRUS TEMPERATURES

Abstract:

This research examines the potential role of some types of mineral dust
as heterogeneous ice nuclei at cirrus temperatures. Commercially available
nanoscale powder samples of aluminum oxide, alumina-silicate and iron oxide
were atomized from suspensions, dried and selected at monodisperse sizes (50
to 200 nm) for use as surrogates for atmospheric mineral dust particles. A
tube furnace with a linear temperature gradient was used to condense
sulfuric acid on the particles. The degree of acid coatings on the particles
was determined by measuring their cloud condensation activity with a static
thermal gradient diffusion chamber and applying Kohler theory for mixed
particles. Measurements of ice nucleation were made using a continuous flow
ice-thermal diffusion chamber (CFDC) operated to expose aerosols to
temperatures between -45 and -60°C and a range of relative humidity above
ice-saturated conditions.
http://www.atmos.colostate.edu/pipermail/atmos-seminar/2003-January/000077.html

The use of Aluminum as ICE NUCLEI has been presented.

But, But, But, why would we want to know how aluminum acts as ice nuclei? It shows on that airliners dot net that all them thar contrails are uh, only made of water and stuff.

I digress.

Quote from a Captain in the Canadian Military.

"We're building sheep, if you don't think we're messing with the weather, you're an idiot".

posted 03-28-2003 08:36 PM            

Waaaaaaaay too many folks would need to be "in on it", and they would NEVER be able to keep it under wraps. And the extra weight of the chems would reduce pax loads which, you can bet, the airliners would not be fond of.

posted 03-28-2003 09:55 PM            

Well, you are kind of forced to take the position that airliners are being used to spray. The military or government has no where NEAR enough aircraft to produce the amount of chemtrails you guys say exist in a single day. The only people with enough aircraft to accomplish these chemtrail spray days all over the country are......you guessed it...the airlines.

posted 04-04-2003 03:49 AM            

The """ Atmospheric Radiation Measurement
Unmanned Aerospace Vehicle""" project offered some fun research.

Most links are outdated but still accessible through the 'wayback machine'.

""www.atmos.colostate.edu"" has done it all.

Here's a study where a 757 is used as a test platform for contrail studies.
http://web.archive.org/web/20010902095740/http://armuav.atmos.colostate.edu/uavs96/050396.html

Snip

"May 3, 1996 -- ARM-UAV AND SUCCESS CARRY OUT JOINT CONTRAIL MISSION --- Under fair weather conditions over Northern Oklahoma, the ARM-UAV and SUCCESS aircraft flew in patterned formation to sense different features of contrails generated by a Boeing 757. The SUCCESS aircraft, the ER2, DC8, B757 and the T39, flew in clear air and the B757 attempted to generate contrails with different type fuels at approximately 37 Kft.

Unfortunately, the atmosphere was quite dry, and the contrails generated were very short lived - less than about a mile. Nevertheless, the SUCESS pilots reported they could see different type contrails depending upon the fuel used."

Here's a little snip from nasa showing how contrails(?) can evaporate cirrus clouds. http://web.archive.org/web/20000816072129/http://rsd.gsfc.nasa.gov/pub/goes/quicktime/970510.florida.mov

JET AIRCRAFT CONTRAILS: SURFACE TEMPERATURE VARIATIONS DURING THE AIRCRAFT GROUNDINGS OF SEPT. 11?13, 2001
David J. Travis Univ. of Wisconsin, Whitewater, WI 53190., Andrew M. Carleton, and Ryan G. Lauritsen. http://ams.confex.com/ams/13ac10av/10ARAM/abstracts/39365.htm

Pathfinder Contrail Studies http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pathfinder_research.html

Holgers got a great spread of contrail slides including a shot from 1983. http://www.astro.ku.dk/~holger/IDA/S/page005.html

Is there some controversy in the scientific community over the effects of contrails? http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_643595.htm

snip
"US researchers have calculated that the water vapour exhaust trails, or contrails, left by cruising jet planes have a small effect on daily temperatures."

same article
"Studies in Western Europe, where contrails are very common, suggest that the contrail effect is at least as important as global warming due to greenhouse gases."

same article
"According to Dr Carleton, however, it is difficult to predict whether contrails will exacerbate global warming or counteract it."

What does Nasa say?

"During the ban on airline traffic within the U.S., the average difference between daytime high and nighttime low temperatures was unusually large."

Entered into the evidence thread, our scientists say that contrails:

1) have a small effect on daily temperatures!

2) contribute to global warming as much as greenhouse gases do.

3) may exacerbate or counteract global warming.

4) presented an "unusually large" difference when they were absent after 91101.

Many more scientific references to contrails:

http://hyperion.gsfc.nasa.gov/AEAP/index.html
Atmospheric Effects of Aviation Project (AEAP)
http://www.lapeth.ethz.ch/~dominik/tradeoff/
AIRCRAFT EMISSIONS: CONTRIBUTION OF DIFFERENT CLIMATE COMPONENTS TO CHANGES IN RADIATIVE FORCING - TRADEOFF TO REDUCE ATMOSPHERIC IMPACT
http://www.scirus.com/search_simple/?frm=simple&query_1=contrail&dsmem=on&dsweb=on

The effects of contrails on earths atmosphere has been presented.

Opening the floor to information on "any" atmospheric releases from aircraft for the purpose of atmospheric studies or experiments.

We begin with a search on ""atmospheric tracers"" http://www.scirus.com/search_simple/?frm=simple&query_1=%22atmospheric+tracers%22&dsmem=on&dsweb=on

and "SF6" http://www.scirus.com/search_simple/?frm=simple&query_1=SF6&dsmem=on&dsweb=on

posted 04-04-2003 10:09 AM            

We know that contrails have effects on the environment! They are clouds, for Gods sake. Whenever you start filling up the sky with more clouds than normal, there will be consequences.

Are these CHEMTRAILS?? No.
What is the name of ths forum, and website? ChemtrailCentral.

Lets stick to the topic.

posted 04-04-2003 12:16 PM            

Contrail research must be presented. As you have pointed out to the new reader, contrails effect the atmosphere.

One purpose of the studies is to determine how much.

For the 'new reader', it is important to understand the incredible volume of research that was performed prior to 1998.

Take the time to look through the atmospheric tracer links and find the non-covert spray programs.
Maybe these are some of the chemtrails you've described PHX.

Also to be established on this thread are all the past and current weather modification projects.

Maybe you can post a few bytes of research to establish 'another' controlled variable for the chemtrail program.

posted 04-04-2003 01:28 PM            

or heavy metal trail, or chemi-ion trails

For arguments sake, it is important to remember that even the trails left behind by aircraft not participating in this (?) mass atmospheric experiment are

CHEMTRAILS.

the water vapour that forms these trails need a nuclei to bond to. Whether its the natural byproducts of combustion in a jet engine like aluminum, barium...

'Aircraft jet engines also directly emit metal particles. Their sources include engine erosion and the combustion of fuel containing trace metal impurities or metal particles that enter the exhaust with the fuel (Chapter 7). Metal particles—comprising elements such as Al, Ti, Cr, Fe, Ni, and Ba—are estimated to be present at the parts per billion by volume (ppbv) level at nozzle exit planes (CIAP, 1975; Fordyce and Sheibley, 1975).' 3.2.3.2 Metal Particles
- http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/035.htm

etc. or residual hydro-carbons.

'Contrails consist of ice particles that mainly nucleate on exhaust soot and volatile plume aerosol particles.' 3.2.4.1. Formation Conditions and Observations - http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/035.htm

either way, i'm afraid that every time i see the visual representation of fuel combustion emanating from aircraft, I can't help feel sad for the massive pollution load being added to our biosphere.

Now, please feel free to check out http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/index.htm

This is a publication produced by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) under the UN.

I'm sure you all will find the cover very interesting, 3 planes leaving thick chemtrails.

ICU812, thanks for doing such great and methodical work. But please do not dismiss any 'trail with regards to its significance.
BTW, how did the meeting go ith the SUN? email me

Anyway, i continue to wonder why no one wants to address this. Esp. interesting is that this extensive scientific publication provides excellent fodder for the debunkers (not that i'm trying to encourage them or anything).

For eg. if Barium and Aluminum are known components of jet exhaust, why do some continue to spread the mis-information that all that's coming out the exhaust is CO2 and water.

sheesh, anyone with the most basic understanding of combustion knows this isn't the case.

So, now that we know contrails are chemtrails too....

Am i the only one that thinks this is significant? Maybe we should wait until some psy-ops shrill tells that all the increased levels of heavy metals are only the natural by-product of aviation, or that the increased prevalence of chemtrails is a direct result of increased water vapour in the atmosphere.

'and there is a greater chance for aircraft emissions to increase the ambient concentration.' - 1.3.2. Water http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/016.htm#132

Anyway, I'm no scientist but the folks who wrote this stuff sure are. and i believe i even spotted P Minnis' name att. to some of the studies.

Note: the publication 'Aviation and the Global Atmosphere' used to be on the front page of ipcc.ch

table of contents here http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/index.htm

CIAO

posted 04-04-2003 02:18 PM            

Its quite obvious that aircraft pollute. You car pollutes. Boats pollute. Anything with a freaking motor produces pollutants.

If you have changed your definition of "chemtrails" to mean exaust. Then, yes, chemtrails exist.

Go ahead and whine about how airliners are polluting the atmosphere. Then I will keep posting about how your car produces exaust. "*whine*, your car makes chemtrails too!"

posted 04-04-2003 03:19 PM            

My intentions were not to whine about obvious pollution (been doing that for 12 years to no effect already), and i don't own a car.

I believe that besides the building momentum of ecological collapse as a result of our anthropocentric ways, there is in ADDITION to that some very sinister atmospheric spraying programs, experimental or not, going on.

I appreciate the work of dedicated researchers and intelligent, thoughtful, caring people, and not that of mental retards and losers like you.

aaargh, i should'a' gone to that pro-american war rally this afternoon and had a really good laugh, instead of investing my time here.

cheerio!

posted 04-04-2003 05:03 PM            

Im not disagreeing with your claim that aircraft are harming the environment to some extent. We all know that. That is why I dont care to talk about it.

posted 04-05-2003 12:08 AM            

When studying the material at ipcc.ch one will find a wealth of scientific information that directly relates to this discussion.

Like, how chemtrails are formed, the conditions in which they persist, the provable effects on the atmosphere and our climate. The radiaitve forcing properites of dispersed chemtrails, and oh, heres a good one
5.4 Calculated Impact of Aviation on UV at the Surface of the Earth http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/059.htm

So, on the theory that chemtrails are being deliberately sprayed for the purposes of a solar shield to protect us against depleting ozone layer levels or, to mitigate the effects of climate change (global warming), I'd say the published scientific data on just such known effects should be considered.

If anything it without a doubt proves the science behind the speculation and intent is well researched.

Here's the opening lines of chapter 5.4

'Present and future fleets of aircraft have the capacity to modify the amount of UV arriving at the surface of the Earth as a result of changes brought about by:

The amount and distribution of ozone in the upper troposphere and lower stratosphere

The amount of cloud cover

The aerosol type, content, and distribution.'

posted 04-10-2003 03:18 PM            

Soot particles formed during fuel combustion and emitted metallic particles constitute the solid (nonvolatile) particle fraction present in exhaust plumes. Under certain thermodynamic conditions, emitted water vapor condenses and freezes to form water-ice particles, thereby producing a condensation trail (contrail). These line clouds evaporate rapidly if the ambient humidity is low but may change the size and chemical composition of the remaining liquid aerosol particles. If the humidity is above ice saturation, contrails persist and grow through further deposition of ambient water.

In one section of this article I found a comment that a lot of those particles stay up in the atmosphere for a long time. So I guess it’s no wonder there are so many visible trails anymore. Reminds me of what’s happened in Los Angeles with all the auto traffic. So this is what the future of our skies will be looking like all over the globe?

Included here is a description of Chemi-ions... When I first saw this word I wondered what it meant... so here’s the explanation in case a few others were wondering what Chemi-ions are.

3.2.1.3. Chemi-ions
1. A large number of chemi-ions (CIs) are expected to be present in aircraft exhaust because ion production via high-temperature chemical reactions is known to occur in the combustion of carbon-containing (not necessarily sulfur-containing) fuels (e.g., Burtscher, 1992). In the jet regime, some recent models indicate that CIs effectively promote formation and growth of electrically charged droplets containing H2SO4 and H2O (Yu and Turco, 1997). In addition, CIs may contribute to the activation of exhaust soot. Positive ions include H3O+ and organic molecules like CHO+, C3H3+, and larger molecules (Calcote, 1983), whereas the free electrons rapidly attach to other molecules to form negative ions with sulfate and nitrate cores. Measurements of positive CIs in exhaust plumes are not available, and only very few in situ measurements of negative CIs are available to date.

Now for this interesting last statement in the article.

Further observations in aging plumes (> 1 h) as they dilute with the background atmosphere are currently lacking. Without detailed observations of the microphysical evolution and chemical composition of volatile exhaust particles from the engine exhaust plume to the global scale, important uncertainties remain in assessing the potential global impact of exhaust products on chemistry and cloudiness.

Seems to me all these diluted aging plumes are catching up with us. Something is changing in our atmosphere. And they’re telling us here that “important uncertainties” remain because the necessary observations are lacking? Hmmm....

Well... I think most of us here have seen what’s going on... It’s no wonder some of the pilots here are getting uncomfortable... especially the younger ones. Flying airplanes is their means of livelihood. Nobody likes knowing that there could be real problems ahead for their line of work if certain issues remain unaddressed.

posted 04-14-2003 10:51 PM            

It's going to take more time than Kelowna's Rosie will give me.

I'll lay out the link I'm using and when I find time back in gopher land I'll search for photo's.

It would be comforting to know that MASS R&D has never been associated with our jet fleet.

What a Pender Bender!!!!!

Here's the scientific link I used for MASS research.
http://www.scirus.com/search_simple/?frm=simple&query_1=%22Modular+aerial+spray+system%22&dsmem=on&dsweb=on

A few interesting URL's.

This ones from BIOmed.net and has a reference to MASS, but you need to register to read.
Very stange connection! http://reviews.bmn.com/medline/search/record?uid=MDLN.96425173&refer=scirus

A few various photos. The top one is apparently from the inside of a C-130 (not a suspect chemtrailer, and never has been).

It would be nice to know why the H a BIOMEDICAL TOXICOLOGIST is part of a unit that sprays bugs. More reading required obviously.
Capt. Mitch Fadem (left), a biomedical toxicologist with the 910th Airlift Wing here, and Tech. Sgt. Robert Horner, an aerial spray maintenance technician, check out one of the wing's modular aerial spray systems. In his civilian job, Fadem serves as director of the Center for Emerging Technologies in Aerial Application Research at Kent State University's Trumbull Campus in Warren, Ohio. The captain is a major player in a partnership between the center and Youngstown ARS that seeks to apply cutting-edge research in environmental technology to real-world problems impacting health, agriculture and national security issues. The 910th AW possesses the only fixed-wing aerial spray capability in the Department of Defense. (U.S. Air Force photo by Dan Doherty) http://www.afrc.af.mil/hq/pa/gallery/03july02/july0302.html

Heres a link that takes some diggin to get to but covers MASS. (Will look for pictures later) http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.afrc.af.mil/HQ/citamn/Feb99/spraying.html

Additional research on "ASPEX" and "TAP" is required.

posted 04-14-2003 11:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ICU812:

It would be nice to know why the H a BIOMEDICAL TOXICOLOGIST is part of a unit that sprays bugs.

---

That makes perfect sense to me though. You would want someone in the unit to have detailed knowledge of biology and what the pesticides are toxic to, and what they will affect. I mean you would want someone with more formal education than the local exterminator, I would think. Some pesticides that might be suitable in some places, might not be a good idea in other situations, and its probably that persons responsibility to determine that.

posted 04-17-2003 12:12 AM            

Lulu, Conair builds fire fighting equipment and are also the manufacturer of the MAS System. Is Conroy's photo, without a doubt, firefighting equipment?

A little more diggin' to do but I will find a photo of MASS.

Here's a little 'request for quotation' for parts.
http://www.fbodaily.com/cbd/archive/1997/10(October)/06-Oct-1997/16sol001.htm
COMMERCE BUSINESS DAILY ISSUE OF OCTOBER 6,1997 PSA#1945

Operational Contracting Office, 910 AW/LGC (AFRES), YARS, 3976 King Graves Rd, Vienna, OH 44473-0910

16 -- AERIAL SPRAY CHEMICAL FLUSH TANKS FOR THE 910AW AT YOUNGSTOWN AIR RESERVE BASE SOL F33630-97-T-1117 DUE 110197 POC Louis Fossesca, Contract Specialist, Phone (330) 609-1041, FAX (330) 609-1042 This solicitation is for the procurement of two (2) 200 gallon aerial spray chemical flush tanks for the existing Modular Aerial Spray System (MASS) manufactured by Conair Aviation LTD. The end use of this item(s) is on C-130 Aircrafts, and manufactured out of aluminum material. No other technical data is available. Delivery destination of the end product is the Youngstown Air Reserve Station, Vienna Ohio. Desired delivery is 22 weeks, and required delivery is 30 weeks after award. No telephone requests will be accepted. Only written or faxed requests received directly from the requester are acceptable. All responsible sources may submit a bid, proposal, or quotation which shall be considered. Authority: 10 U.S.C. 2304(C)(1), Justification: Supplies (or Services) required are available from only one or a limited number of responsible source(s) and no other type of supplies or services will satisfy agency requirements. See Note(s) 22.(0094). (0275)

Loren Data Corp. http://www.ld.com (SYN# 0094 19971006\16-0001.SOL)

posted 04-17-2003 12:16 AM            

According to my trusted and reliable source, it is Eye-See-You-Ate-One-Too. Shoulda taken the blue but the red jumped out...at me.