posted 04-20-2003 09:35 PM            

Ok, so one guy knows the construction business. Yippee. My uncle was a carpenter for a contractor, and he was a drunk loser. Not saying that you are, but the fact you can throw out a bunch of technical wording relating to carpentry does little to make me think you're some kind of genius.

I can do the same thing regarding my profession...localizer, DME, TACAN, glidepath, low pressure turbine spool, calibrated airspeed, etc etc. Impressed? Probably not. You'd assume a pilot would know those things. Just like I assume that anyone who works in the contracting business would know the difference between a brace and a stud.

One thing that isn't often admitted, is that a professional pilot (I mean one who flies turbine aircraft) undergoes as much training and education as a doctor does.

I'm not referring to the casual private pilot. I'm sure you know a few "pilot friends" that have private or even a basic commercial rating, but even those guys don't quite understand the full scale of high-altitude flying.

Most professional pilots have at least a 4-year college degree. Each has had to amass 250 hours or more of training, often over the course of a year or more. Each has held what can only be termed "internship" type jobs as a flight instructor or as a co-pilot for a small charter outfit.

By the time they have reached an airline, they have amassed in the neighborhood of 3,000 to 5,000 hours of flying time, a college degree, and 4-5 years of work as a copilot. Getting to a major airline at 30 years of age is considered "young".

So it shows to me a total and complete lack of understanding for someone to say to a professional pilot that they are "just a pilot". It's like saying "you're just a doctor" or "just a structural engineer".

The "just a pilot" remarks would apply to someone who flew a 2,000 pound Cessna on the weekends in fair weather with a private pilot's license. But to belittle a professional who COMMANDS an aircraft weighing in excess of 100,000 pounds, carrying dozens of passengers at over 500 miles per hour in any weather, anywhere in the world....it simply shows lack of understanding.

Now, about this issue of pilots not having any role to play....

If this conspiracy had anything to do with construction codes, perhaps you (Mr. Chemwatcher) would feel compeled to educate us on such things, would you not? If you read about someone posting incorrect information about how buildings are built, or how building codes are applied, you'd probably correct them. And you'd probably wouldn't take much of what they had to say very seriously for showing a basic lack of understanding of such a subject.

But, instead, we're debating contrails versus chemtrails. At the very core of this debate lies this: these trails are supposedly being delivered at high altitudes (30,000 feet, give or take) by turbine-powered aircraft. These aircraft are crewed by pilots. These aircraft also MUST interact with the national airspace system to some degree. And atmospheric conditions play a part in this conspiracy.

So...let's take stock. Chemtrails involve the atmosphere, airplanes, pilots, airspace, and traffic routing. Yet somehow, you feel that it is not appropriate for a pilot to interject his or her professional opinion. You feel that the only ones qualified to say anything about the matter are ground observers who are not educated on aviation matters or weather matters, have never (except as a passenger) been in an airplane, and don't understand how aircraft work or how it's so ridiculous for any pilot to believe that the government is conducting a "secret" program right in the middle of altitudes used most heavily by all air traffic without ANYONE figuring it all out...except of course, the non-pilot, non-aviation educated ground observer.

OK, I'm rambling now. But maybe you get my point. If this were a conspiracy involving health issues, it would be prudent to take heed to what a doctor says. If it were a conspiracy involving bridges, it would make sense to listen to a civil engineer who designs bridges. If it were a conspiracy involving earthquake machines, a geologist would have some professional say in the matter.

And yet here we are...a conspiracy with aviation playing a central role, yet professional jet pilots are told they don't know anything and should go away. After all, we're JUST pilots.

No sir, I'm not JUST a pilot. I'm a geologist, I worked as one for 3 years and hold a degree. I worked as a construction equipment operator part time for 4 years. I drove tractor-trailer trucks. I'm a trained aircraft accident investigator. And being an officer in the military, I'm also a manager. And yes, I'm a 1,200 hour Learjet pilot with my Commercial/Multi-engine/Single-engine/Helicopter/Instrument ratings. I've been flying since 1989, and flying professionally since 1996.

Discount what I may say. That's up to you. But one reason why this conspiracy is considered a joke outside the "chemtrail activist" circle is because you take the word of people who have never stepped foot on an aircraft, and then declare professional pilots who've been doing this stuff for years as "disinformation agents".

You may have realized that I don't post here all that often anymore. There's a reason for that. I have remained reserved, and tried to hold at least a basic respect for everyone on this board. But my patience ran thin, and instead of lashing out and calling people names, I've just simply stopped posting here. Because it frustrates me to no end. And I don't need to grow any more gray hair over people that, in all honesty, don't matter, and never will.

Your theory of chemtrails will die. It will go away. The main reason why it still exists is this forum. I think most people who participate here do so not because of their deeply held convictions, but because it's "exciting" to argue and stomp around like you're having the last word and you're right.

The chemtrail movement will go away. PHX, PDX, NW...don't worry. It will go away. If you need any proof, look at the Carnicom website. Once a hotbed of any real discussion, it's now mostly full of mostly kooky ideas (aliens, scalar, mind-control, etc) that have little to nothing to do with chemtrails, or evangelical stuff.

The primary reason why Carnicom's site took a nosedive so quickly is because Cliff, in his infinite wisdom, banned anyone and everyone with a dissenting voice. And even banned some with moderate voices. All that was left was the crazy radical element. Now, it's a dead site. I rarely even go there because 9 times out of 10, there's nothing worth even reading.

Eventually, this site will cave in as well...either due to lack of interest, or the clientele will move inevitably towards the more radical element, thus scaring off the cooler heads with more realistic scenarios.

posted 04-20-2003 10:00 PM            

I brought that exact same thing up with him a week or so ago.

Here is what I said to him:

What if I started a website called "ChemWood", and I claimed that all the wood you use in our houses was tainted with poison? Im sure you would jump on the site, and tell us all that the "poison" we see is really caulking, or laquer, or whatever, now wouldnt you? Thats right, as a pilot, I have no place telling others what or what is not normal about wood.

This is what he said back:

no but you could take your views where they will do you the most good your own site,come on as smart as you are,good speller,computer savy,what are you waiting for, its your big chance ..take it, go for it ,we'll support you...ps. hows my spelling teach...
MAN POISENED WOOD HUH..YOU ARE SICK SEEK HELP
--------------------------------------------
Im not quite sure what he was trying to say, either.

posted 04-21-2003 04:14 PM            

SARS4UPILOT

posted 04-22-2003 06:29 AM            

What does it matter whether one is a pilot or an English translator. What counts is whether one is capable of confronting reality. I am seeing many examples around me of intellectuals, organized Leftists and ecologists, who cannot. The same people who reject the possibility of chemtrails being a fact are people who reject Mindy Kleinberg's testimony to the Committee against Terrorism as a conspiracy theory, despite the fact that it is not a theory but a testimony under oath to an official authority.

posted 04-22-2003 01:51 PM            

You going to threaten to kill me now too, big guy?

posted 04-22-2003 03:28 PM            

Why should things be any different for those who see the situation from the sky?

And your tough-guy talk doesn't add anything one way or the other. My losing my temper at one point doesn't add anything to your moral or intellectual status.

posted 04-22-2003 04:21 PM            

But the english teacher is going to have a much harder time finding out the "reality". Being pilots, we know more about weather than an english teacher. So we have a better idea of what is normal, and what is not. You cant just say "I know the reality" just for the heck of it. You have to know the facts. And pilots tend to know more facts about weather/contrails than the english teacher.

posted 04-22-2003 08:08 PM            

More like, a bus driver claiming that ships are being steered through waters that harbor endangered species on purpose, so that the species will die out, so we dont have to create special preserves for them.

Ship captains claim this is not true, and that the routings they are taking are normal.

posted 04-22-2003 08:15 PM            

If I believe that Santa Claus exists because I saw him last Christmas in three department stores and you want to disabuse me of this belief, you can resort to certain arguments (i.e. that those guys aren't Santa, they're just dressed up, etc.)

If you want to do the same with chemtrails you are going to have to find a better argument than the argument that the planes we see are the planes going about their business we have always seen and emitting the trails we have always seen, because anyone can see that isn't so.

If it isn't as obvious from the sky as it is from the ground then you will have to come down from the clouds to see it.

But in fact you aren't going to have to do any such thing, because it's all politics really and you will keep defending the indefensible for as long as judge that politically you are on the winning side.

But the point that you are leaving out of account is that the dividing lines between the "sides" politically are not completely predictable and immutable and you might suddenly find that you are on the opposite side to the side you thought you were on.
You will discover that your only companions will be a handful of Leftist intellectuals, who will do nothing to save you.

posted 04-22-2003 08:42 PM            

If I were you, I would be doing nothing but trying to prove chemtrails.

If you successfully prove that the white lines you see above you are chemicals, and not ice crystals, then you will have mowed down every opponent that dares to oppose you.

You will be able to pass laws much easier, get the word out quicker, and be accepted more readily by others if you have undeniable proof that what you see is chemicals.

But, instead, all you do is rant at me.

Keep saying that I will be on the losing side.

Fine.

But, if huge clouds of chemicals are really just sitting there easily within visual range, you should be able to prove it without a doubt.

Yet all you do is rant.

posted 04-22-2003 09:20 PM            

JP-8 fuel, milspec oil and hydraulic fluid, battery acids, isopropyl alcohol, and the blue stuff in the toilet. Not to mention the coffee.

To answer PHX's earlier question...no, we didn't go to KLUF's airshow, we were just a gas-n-go to drop off some pax.

Again, I gotta split for now...going flying again. Man, once they make you Aircraft Commander, they seem to enjoy working the heck out of ya...

posted 04-22-2003 09:35 PM            

Pacer- you said your callsign is Reach, isnt it? I heard that yesterday in my ramblings around the southeast.

It's OK Jeanie, the monster up under your bed doesn't exist.

posted 04-22-2003 09:43 PM            

Our normal callsign is JOSA for JOSAC-owned flights or PACER for training/unit-owned flights.

Most of the REACH callsigns are C-17s, C-141s, C-130s or C-5s. If you're in airspace above FL230, it's likely NOT a C-130 because they usually don't fly much above that. And the 141s are becoming rare as the USAF retires them. So likely a REACH airplane is either a C-17 or a C-5.