posted 11-15-2003 06:52 AM            

1. If chemtrails are so obvious, why are there so many debunkers? I'm not talking about uninformed individuals who haven't heard of chemtrails or simply know about their existence and not much else and then try to write the whole thing off. I'm talking about the people who apparently read up on chemtrails, browse this forum, apparently see the same thing that we believe to be chemtrails, but still tirelessly say that chemtrails are simply contrails. Are they ALL just incredibly stupid? Are they ALL disinformation agents with an agenda or something to lose? Or do they have a point? Is it POSSIBLE that what everyone is seeing as chemtrails really are ice crystals that linger in the air longer than other ice crystals? Is there even the slightest chance that we've been wasting our time? Be honest.

2. I've seen what are apparently chemtrails on many occasions. I'm leaning towards them being actual chemicals secretly being sprayed in the air. I've seen them sit in the air for hours, spreading out, and settling into a haze. But is it theoretically possible for ice crystals to hang in the air for hours and spread out into a haze? Again, be honest. There's a lot of facets to the whole chemtrail issue, but it all seems to boil down to whether or not ice crystals are capable of doing what we're seeing in the sky all the time. I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I'm just looking for a clear answer.

3. If chemicals are being sprayed from commercial airliners as well as military aircraft, how the hell are they keeping that secret? I've read apparent testimonies from supposed mechanics who have found "extra" equipment and tanks within planes and then were apparently threatened to not disclose this information. There are also other testimonies from higher ups in the airlines business who say they were approached by the government to secretly put in spraying equipment on various planes, for the good of the people, without giving reasons but making it clear that it must be secretive. How reliable are these reports? Is it theoretically possible for the government to pull something like this off when there are obviously lots of mechanics and technicians who have access to these planes? Are they ALL part of the conspiracy? If no one knows what I'm talking about, I'll try to find these quotes from various people in the airlines industry and post them here. We've seen commercial airliners doing what is apparently spraying, so we had to assume that they have clearly infiltrated the airline industry. But is it even possible that this never happened and that regular airlines that are apparently spraying us are just creating ice crystals that hang in the air for long periods of time and spread out?

posted 11-15-2003 05:41 PM               

1. If you started a website claiming that dogs are actually disguised aliens from mars, you would get alot of debunkers there too. Its human nature to want to prove someone else wrong. And the easier a theory is to disprove, the more and more debunkers you are going to get. The sheer number of smart, informed, intelligent people disproving this theory should be enough to send up warning flags. If the theory had no holes, and was flawless, there would be no debunkers because they would have nothing to feed off of.

2. Contrails staying suspended in the air and spreading out over time has been documented all the way back to before WWII when aircraft started flying high enough to produce them. The B-17 crews tried despratly to find a way to keep these big huge billowy contrails from forming because 1) It was giving away their position to the enemy and 2) the contrails would last so long, and spread out so wide that it would form a very big cloud deck. So much so, that the B-17 formations had to find alternate routes home sometimes because they didnt want to fly through all the clouds they produced earlier. Lots of B-17s leaving persistant contrails + contrails spreading out and merging = hazy cloud layer. Lots of airliners and other aircraft leaving persistant contrails + contrails spreading out and merging = hazy cloud layer. They same way it has been throughout time. It IS normal, and has been observed as such.

3. They could not keep it a secret. There are FAR FAR FAR too many people involved in the succesful airline flight to keep a gigantic tank of chemicals a secret for more than 5 minutes. There are dozens of people looking over every inch of that aircraft while it is on the ground. If you had a gigantic tank of anything, it would be noted, investigated, and promptly revealed to everyone involved with the operation of the flight. This is completely nonsense to believe that an operation of the size needed to produce the chemtrail operation could stay secret for so long. The list of people that would know about within 1 hour is longer than I can possibly type out.

posted 11-16-2003 09:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by halva:
Eric, you are in collusion with PHX Pilot.

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Halva, by what do you base that on?

posted 11-16-2003 09:53 AM               

What do you want me to do now? Bait you into using cuss words so we can throw you off?

posted 11-16-2003 01:38 PM               

Did that course of action make any logical sense to you Halva? Because everyone else seems to be missing it.

Eric, everyone that has heard of this theory has, at some point, pondered all the questions that you have laid out. I, and many others, have publicly asked the believers to answer them numerous times. But not once have we gotten straight, and logical answers. We just keep getting what Halva has dished out here. It is my opinion that this is because there are no logical answers to those questions that would support the chemtrail theory. All it does it expose flaws in it.

I can't blame the believers for getting so defensive when they are asked these questions. I would be pretty stressed out too if I couldnt prove a theory, or stop people from exposing flaws in a theory, that I had put so much of my life into.

posted 11-16-2003 08:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eric:

1. If chemtrails are so obvious, why are there so many debunkers? I'm not talking about uninformed individuals who haven't heard of chemtrails or simply know about their existence and not much else and then try to write the whole thing off. I'm talking about the people who apparently read up on chemtrails, browse this forum, apparently see the same thing that we believe to be chemtrails, but still tirelessly say that chemtrails are simply contrails. Are they ALL just incredibly stupid? Are they ALL disinformation agents with an agenda or something to lose? Or do they have a point? Is it POSSIBLE that what everyone is seeing as chemtrails really are ice crystals that linger in the air longer than other ice crystals? Is there even the slightest chance that we've been wasting our time? Be honest.

---

Let me turn that question around a bit. If Chemtrails are so obvious, why aren’t there more believers?

Actually I think that the ratio of chemtrail believers to debunkers has been fairly steady for a while. Furthermore, if you look through the forum archives you will see that there were a lot more of both a while back.

Eventually it all boils down to politics and/ or science. I personally would prefer to discuss the basic scientific principles behind the various chemtrails phenomena. However, I have observed that many people believe in chemtrails because they represent an extension of their political beliefs. Under those conditions, the debate tends to wander off track.

quote:

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2. I've seen what are apparently chemtrails on many occasions. I'm leaning towards them being actual chemicals secretly being sprayed in the air. I've seen them sit in the air for hours, spreading out, and settling into a haze. But is it theoretically possible for ice crystals to hang in the air for hours and spread out into a haze? Again, be honest. There's a lot of facets to the whole chemtrail issue, but it all seems to boil down to whether or not ice crystals are capable of doing what we're seeing in the sky all the time. I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I'm just looking for a clear answer.

---

Eric, even Thermit, the owner of this board has admitted that persistent contrails can form under the right weather conditions.

The key thing is: how common are the right weather conditions?

One other concept that often gets overlooked is the phenomena of super saturation (or more properly termed super cooling). This is when the percentage of water vapor in the air as measured by relative humidity is greater than 100%. While super saturation is difficult (but not impossible) to achieve in a liquid solution, It is a lot more common in the upper atmosphere than people realize. This is because the overall density of the gaseous mixture is low enough and the air is relatively clean enough to keep the water vapor from crystallizing around a nucleus.

That doesn’t mean that there could not be chemicals being sprayed, but it does offer an alternative explanation for the observed phenomena.

quote:

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3. If chemicals are being sprayed from commercial airliners as well as military aircraft, how the hell are they keeping that secret? I've read apparent testimonies from supposed mechanics who have found "extra" equipment and tanks within planes and then were apparently threatened to not disclose this information. There are also other testimonies from higher ups in the airlines business who say they were approached by the government to secretly put in spraying equipment on various planes, for the good of the people, without giving reasons but making it clear that it must be secretive. How reliable are these reports? Is it theoretically possible for the government to pull something like this off when there are obviously lots of mechanics and technicians who have access to these planes? Are they ALL part of the conspiracy? If no one knows what I'm talking about, I'll try to find these quotes from various people in the airlines industry and post them here. We've seen commercial airliners doing what is apparently spraying, so we had to assume that they have clearly infiltrated the airline industry. But is it even possible that this never happened and that regular airlines that are apparently spraying us are just creating ice crystals that hang in the air for long periods of time and spread out?

I'm looking forward to your responses.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Eric on 11-15-2003]

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I think PHXpilot covered that one. If it is being done, it is being done by a group outside of the commercial airline fleet. If the military is doing it, then obviously there has to be a suport infrastructure somewhere. If the old adage is true "it take 100 men to put one foot soldier on the fron line." Then there has to be a support group for the planes and pilots. Who they are and where they are has not been disclosed as of yet.

But as you can see by the response to this thread, no one here is really interested in debating chemtrails. Currently, the debates on this board center around political isues like the N.W.O.

There is a real good debate on global warming going on over in the chemtrails forum right now, BTW.

posted 11-17-2003 12:13 AM            

Also, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I'm no debunker. One of the things I have noticed is that almost every time I see what looks like heavy spraying, the next day it rains. The last 3 times I saw the apparent spraying, it rained the next day. This can't be written off as a coincidence. If the spraying is real, then the spraying is either causing the rain or the spraying is done in advance of rain so the chemicals will get into the groundwater and ecosystem easier. Unless someone can prove that persistant contrails form mainly on days before rainfall, I'm leaning towards those lines in the sky being chemicals. In response to Wolf, I am actually interested in intelligent discourses about chemtrail existence, and not to use the phenomenom to further or re-affirm my political beliefs. It's too bad that laughable threads like this and laughable, psychotically defensive fanatics like Halva have to give the whole chemtrail issue a bad name.

posted 11-17-2003 11:16 AM               

let me explain...Why the pattern's/grids in the sky?Because these are "simulated" bombing run's/military tactical drill's,meaning they are running several urban warfare simulation's over your town.And god know's what other type of war game's they are running?This is just as terrible if not worse than what we thought was happening,don't you think?If you compare some of the picture's from the gulf war and many other conflict's,they show several bomber's leaving pattern's in the sky that look alot like what we are seeing over our head's here in the State's today,what most people mistake for "Chemtrail's".They kind of look the same don't they?(If you haven't seen the pic's i'll post them soon)Why The simularity in pattern's?Because these are the same type's of bomber formation's and method's they use during combat situation's.The design has not changed much over the year's,the only major difference is in the new type's of jet engine's,they are much more powerful,but they also leave huge amount of "contrail"in their wake,and the type of fuel is also different that is used.These are contributing factor's of "persistent contrail's".

I believe "this" operation started back in 97/98.After the "supposed" terrorist attack This operation was deployed in full force,hence the numerous chemtrail report's.People are not USED to seeing military operation's on this scale, or the amount of "increased military air traffic".This all seem's new to most people and cause's the majority of confusion amongst chemtrail actavist's.Until 9-11 WTC no one really knew what war was or a terrorist!What is "new" about this though is the NEW ERA OF WARFARE!It's taking place at home...on american soil!Possibly against it's own people?As you all know there are terrorist's living here in the country,not all of them are arabic.

If thing's get any worse i could be seen as a threat because of my veiw's and the doubt's that i have about our government!!

So for the last few year's i believe this is taking place; They are military mapping every city street in the U.S.-Monitoring our purchasing,veiwing and social habit's trying to locate "potential terrorist's"(WHICH I AM NOT!)-REPLACING OUR FREEDOM'S FOR(a false sense of) SECURITY-Testing new technology's over populated area's-Assessing urban warfare data,probably the type where they drop a simulated bomb/chemical over a city,feed the computer the data to get the most likely scenerio in the event of an actual attack.The list goes on... This would take awhile to gather the data and run simulation's,a few year's at least if you think about it?Probably as long as the chemtrail activity has been reported?

Now the real crazy part come's into play...chemtrail's.Well let's just say if you wanted to control the Weather where would you start?Well "Contrail's" are already a factor so let's start there.You can't effectivly "control" the weather if you just start dumping a shit load of chemical's in the air,everyday pollution is testament to that,there is no stopping the runaway effect's of it,and people would notice the spraying if they tried dumping the amount needed to get the desired effect(explained below)."Well we are noticing the spraying" you say?That's the beauty of it.... "they are just Contrail's" and the chemtrailing is only a minimal necessity that is insidiously hidden behind a natural phenomenon.One purpose of the chemtrailing is about weather modification/controlling it.The spraying is used the same way you would seed a cloud to make it rain,do the same thing to the contrail to increase the amount of coverage.Or decrease the amount of coverage.Because to truly "control" the weather you have to be able to make it stop raining or break up stormfront's aswell.What's in the spray is another question?Perhap's it has something to do with polymer's and fibril's people are finding?I'm sure depleting a stormfront is a little more difficult and chemical based than the cloud seeding process?Something has to absorb the moisture,and i'm sure it ain't good!

It's deniability at it's finest... the perfect cover story, a way to pull off the operation in "broad daylight"right in front of your face----* and debunk those who dare say "Chemtrail's" or "we are getting sprayed"!By hiding the reality of the actual spraying amongst a natural process.So why the need to increase the "contrail" coverage?

Now we move on to another aspect of "why". Non-lethal warfare:Holographic projection's.Most of you know about some of the program's the military has on this type of technology,these are operation's i feel are NOW being conducted. They have been trying to make an effective stealth fighter for year's as you all know,but the damn Plane itself,"contrail's" and heat signature's give up all hope's of being invisible to radar and ground observation.Not if you could perfect a way to beam the image of the background color of the sky, over a desired object/plane,making it vanish from sight,contrail and all?Creating the illusion of invisibility for someone observing from ground level.Or a squadron of holographic fighter's that aren't really there?Invisible to radar but visible from the ground,the result of that would be absolute panic!I wont go into all the use's of holographic technology and it's many possible military application's... right now.The atmosphere is so saturated,the haze is so thick,that i bet it would make a great "screen" to project holographic image's on?Holographic projection's might explain "some" of the recent "orb" sighting's and ufo report's?

Some people have claimed to see plane's vanish "contrail and all"(I'm one of those people).

To me all of the above(if you have taken it into consideration?) just seem's like a perfect way to acheive several goal's at once,while useing what's at hand to hide the spraying and a way to effectivly use those natural "contrail" emession's that are so troublsome when trying to be stealthy.

I came to these conclusion's by questioning people that have been in the military,and are familiar with avionic's,who have actually seen bomber's in action,and/or served during time's of war.Also i gained alot of knowledge researching "natural contrail" formation,something i recommend everyone start's doing."Chemtrail's" i hate to say are real.And "persistant contrail's"also.

I know aswell as many other's...that there is "some truth behind chemtrail's.I have seen through my binocular's,the on-off-on-off type of spraying coming from a nozzle from the "side" of a plane!This plane was low enough to see alot of detail with the naked eye,it was pure white and unmarked and definatly had a spray apperatus on it.It was "sputtering" off and on as it passed over head,then as it got a distance away it just started FLOODING out leaving a huge plume behind it(i wish i got a pic)!This is one of many sighting's i've had,my freind Billy D was there for a great deal of them.

Anyway's this is not the complete theory that i have, i will post a more detailed version of it later,along with some of Billy D's input also. It's alway's better to have backup when dealing with these subject's than it is to deal with it alone,either way someone's alway's going to try and say your nut's...I kind of don't blame them it sound's nut's!

Well thank's for reading my ranting's,i've put alot of thought into them but it's still just theory.Eddie(EMFX13)

Here's a couple of link's to check out:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000EF7E7-BE61-1EDC-8E1C809EC588EF21

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project068.html

http://www.fas.org/bwc/nonlethal.htm

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacg i/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=0&p=1&f=S&l=50&Query=chemtrail&d=PG01

http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/

http://www.pr.wpafb.af.mil/JP8plus100.html

http://airliners.net/

posted 11-17-2003 11:57 AM               

quote:

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I have seen through my binocular's,the on-off-on-off type of spraying coming from a nozzle from the "side" of a plane!This plane was low enough to see alot of detail with the naked eye,it was pure white and unmarked and definatly had a spray apperatus on it.It was "sputtering" off and on as it passed over head,then as it got a distance away it just started FLOODING out leaving a huge plume behind it

---

I am not a believer, although I am not interested in debunking Chemtrails either. It looks to me as an inoffensive and nice way to spend free time discussing the existence of percieved sightings.

But, didn't crossed you mind that the plane you saw had been in an emergency situation, and was releasing fuel before attempting a forced landing? The material released, came from the plane's body, or from the underside of its wings? If from the body, from the front, middle or rear part, and from the bottom or the sides? As it was flying low, and you had binoculars, you must have seen this in detail.

posted 11-17-2003 02:34 PM               

quote:

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But, didn't crossed you mind that the plane you saw had been in an emergency situation, and was releasing fuel before attempting a forced landing? The material released, came from the plane's body, or from the underside of its wings? If from the body, from the front, middle or rear part, and from the bottom or the sides? As it was flying low, and you had binoculars, you must have seen this in detail.

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posted 11-17-2003 03:20 PM               

quote:

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Contrails are safe, contrary to misinformation on the internet and other sources. The creation of contrails may give the illusion an aircraft is spraying something, however, this is just an illusion. Contrails are created from the normal emissions of jet engines at higher altitudes which condense water vapor into a visible cloud. The emissions from jet engines are basically the same as from car or diesel engines. These emissions do not contain ethylene dibromide (EDB), since EDB is not a component of JP-8, or jet fuel. The contrails are water vapor. They do not pose a hazard.

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quote:

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They do not pose a hazard.

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posted 11-17-2003 04:59 PM            

EMFX - I know this is petty, but use this rule of thumb: "If a word ends in an "s", you probably should NOT be using an apostrophe before it".

"S" is possessive, meaning the thing written after it belongs to it, ie: "Sally's dog".. the dog belongs to Sally.

posted 11-18-2003 07:24 PM               

You are warning me for saying, and I quote "...Halva rants about how everyone else in the thread should be banned..." because it is "knowingly inaccurate", and breaks the forum rules.

Well, lets take a good look at a couple of these rules then.

1. Rudeness and derisive behavior may be grounds for loss of posting rights at the discretion of the Chemtrail Central Council and/or moderators.
and
Posting of any any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harrassing, obscene, profane, violent, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or in violation of any law is not allowed and may result in loss of posting rights at the discretion of the Chemtrail Central Council and/or moderators.

You mean to tell me that Halvas statment "Eric, you are in collusion with PHX Pilot." and "You are disingenuous and I have better things to do than waste my time with you." is not in any way knowingly inaccurate, defamatory, abusive, hateful, or harassing?

Can we have a ruling please, regarding whether or not Halva has broken the aformentioned rules in this thread?

posted 11-18-2003 08:10 PM            

This is too, too funny.

posted 11-18-2003 11:17 PM               

As is my wont, I took this conversation opener in good faith, and began a discussion in good faith. After the intervention of PHX Pilot, a veteran and self-confessed debunker on this site who has survived until now because he does not descend to the worst forms of abuse and has succeeded (unlike e.g. Feelin Kocky) in keeping his temper - Kocky's hot bloodedness greatly facilitated his removal - and Eric's response to it, I became suspicious that they were colluding, as debunkers systematically do on this forum and elsewhere.

When people are operating collectively and not as individuals, the rules of individual morality cease to have the monopoly and the rules of politics begin to influence what is and should be an intelligent response.

Therefore, on the suspicion of collusion, I took the political action of accusing collusion.

Wolf's intervention, and Eric's response to the accusion of collusion, strengthened my sense firstly that Eric is not posting through a desire in the first instance to increase his knowledge about chemtrails and secondly that debunkers are colluding on this thread.

However, this is a personal feeling. I do not feel like wasting my time with people who when faced with the phenomenon of destruction of the planet which is our common home, cannot break free of certain stereotyped routines and attitudes which have developed in the face of other, perhaps simpler, human needs.

I therefore made it clear to Eric that I had no further wish to engage in conversation with him, but that if he could entice others on this forum into dialogue with him (as he has in fact done) then he was free to do so.

I also pointed out how practices on this forum are different from those prevailing at chemtrailtrackingusa, where people are kicked off at the first sign of their being debunkers.

PHX Pilot misrepresented and caricatured my response, claiming that I was ranting and threatening to expel everyone else on the thread. This is a violation of forum rules, which forbid wilful inaccuracy.

There was enough agreement on the Council with this view for me to secure agreement for a warning to be given to PHX Pilot.

The credibility of Pilot's claim that with my accusation of collusion I am also engaged in wilful inaccuracy is predicated on him being able to prove that no collusion is occurring between himself, Eric and Wolf.

On the other hand the credibility of my claim that he is engaged in wilful inaccuracy is demonstrated by the fact that he is still here.

Wolf's point that I am threatening to exclude Pilot for saying that I am threatening to exclude him is similarly inaccurate. The inaccuracy of Pilot's position consists in his presentation of how this forum is different from chemtrailtrackingusa as a demonstration of how this forum is similar to chemtrailtrackingusa.

posted 11-18-2003 11:37 PM               

And that he should not be charged with "posting inaccurate material" for saying "Eric, you are in collusion with PHX Pilot." because he truly believed it.

I believe my warning caused by "...Halva rants about how everyone else in the thread should be banned.." should by revoked due to my defense that:
1) I truly believed he was threatening to ban all 3 of us.
2) It was a personal feeling that Halva was ranting.

I still hold to my belief that Halvas reason for posting the comments in question was to inform us that the 'higher ups' and authorities of this site want certain people banned, and that they want us gone so much that they would resort to tricking us into using curse words to find reason to ban us.

This is personal opinion, and I still hold true to that belief.

posted 11-19-2003 03:58 AM               

PHX's 7.24 p.m. posting above has also been posted in the Admin Desk section, which puts him in violation of this clause.

PHX Pilot has now posted the assertion that "Halva's reason for posting the comments in question was to inform us that the "higher ups" and authorities of this site want certain people banned, and that they want us gone so much that they would resort to tricking us into using curse words to find reason to ban us."

In his 7.24 posting PHX Pilot had previously demanded: "a ruling please, regarding whether or not Halva has broken the .. rules in this thread?" In other words he is appealing to the authorities whose instrument he has accused me of being to mediate in a dispute between him and myself. He prefers this appeal to "authority" to continuation of direct dialogue with me, even though by his own theory he could have no reason for hope that these authorities might support him against me.

In fact, of course, there are no "authorities". The Council here includes people who have a lower tolerance for debunkers than I have, (always expelling them instantly and without discussion when they get the chance), and people who have higher tolerance, and who are always prepared to extend the benefit ot the doubt, particularly when a debunker has reasonable manners and perhaps some knowledge, even if irrelevant knowledge which he uses against us, to bluff and bully and mislead.

It is not just the "authorities" but also the non-Council posters who are fed up with debunkers and the way they demoralize newcomers, by haranguing and hectoring them, by asking idiotic questions like Wolf's asking Bobben Sun if he thinks that homeless people are being sprayed with chemtrails, by pursuing "bait and switch" strategies as Eric did with me, but not for very long.

PHX Pilot's schizophrenic attitude toward "the authorities", whoever they may be, is typical not only of chemtrail debunkers but of all American defenders of the existing international order (except perhaps the tiny and politically irrelevant minority of American monarchists). It is destroying our planet and the human race and it has to be checked. It is the dark side of the American War of Independence against the British Crown and is its historical legacy. To desire authority but at the same time to undermine it and destroy it whenever it looks as if it might be constituting itself.

Let Americans defend their republic against the New World Order that is assembling itself around us, with its peculiar mixture of menace and promise.