posted 12-24-2003 01:40 AM            

As to closing down the PHX Pilot thread, just when we were beginning to get at the heart of the philosophical problem that I would like to believe my exclusion from the Council highlights in the most vivid way, this rash of closing down threads that Thermit has started now is no solution to anything.

Mech, it makes no difference if you say that your policy on your own forum is one of zero tolerance for troublemakers or whether you say it is one of zero tolerance for debunkers. The point is that you have this policy for your own forum, yet, as your posting here a day or two back shows, you want it to be on the record that you did not vote in the Council for the exclusion of the troublemaker PHX Pilot from this forum.

Now that whitemajikman has introduced the word 'ringleader', falsely accusing you of being the ringleader of the hypocrites at CTC, I might reveal now that 'ringleader' was precisely the description I used in the Council to justify the exclusion of PHX Pilot. He is not the only ringleader of the debunkers, but he is one of them. His care to mind his manners is one of the characteristics that make it appropriate to apply this description to him, because when groups of people are working collectively it is always in the interests of effectiveness to have at least one of them maintaining a stance of being reasonable, controlled and not impolite.

I targeted PHX Pilot not only because of his misrepresentation of the nature of the Council (a misrepresentation now vividly confirmed by my exclusion from the Council) in the discussion that Eric had started, but because of his status as a ringleader, since the debunker problem at CTC will not be solved just by kicking out the more uneducated and uncouth debunkers.

To get back to Mech's support for PHX Pilot on the Council. This was not a small matter, because the vote was close. If Mech had joined his voice to those calling for the exclusion of PHX Pilot, we would have had a majority on the nine-member Council and Lulu would have had to exclude PHX Pilot, whom only a couple of days ago she eloquently defended in the Council section, because, as she said, he takes care never to break the rules.

So, to get to the heart of the matter: why, Mech, when you apply a policy of zero-tolerance for troublemakers at your own NNWO forum, do you want it to be on the record that you did not vote for the exclusion of a ringleader troublemaker from this forum, and thus assured that he would not be excluded.

Why not help CTC to become more like the constellation of satellite forums: Megasprayer, MOD, NNWO that its lenient policy towards debunkers has generated, and thus make unnecessary this demoralising fragmentation.

This is a key political problem. In fact I would say it is THE key political problem.
You, as an individual, Mech, want to preserve YOUR freedom to have YOUR principled stance towards troublemakers at YOUR forum. But you pride yourself on sabotaging OUR freedom to have OUR principled stance towards troublemakers on OUR forum. So if we are sick up to the back teeth with the pharisaism of a PHX Pilot and don't want to see it in front of us any more we have to knock on the door of Mech's house to get away from it. We can't build a house to accommodate all of us and defend ourselves in that way.

When I failed to secure a majority on the Council for exclusion of PHX Pilot I withdrew from the rest of the forum and confined my postings to the Council chambers. I argued on the Council in favour of a policy of zero tolerance for troublemakers, supporting any initiative against debunkers taken by other Council members. I did not hector my fellow Council members and I did not apply tactics of emotional pressuring and blackmailing.

I was excluded from the Council because of the content of what I was proposing, not because I was proceeding in an undemocratic manner, or breaking any rules. Chem 11 will have problems finding justification for excluding me.

Best wishes for Christmas and New Year and hopefully this important debate can be continued systematically in 2004.

Mech, I want a response to my question of why you support of policy of zero-tolerance for troublemakers at NNWD but not at CTC.

posted 12-24-2003 04:09 AM            

"Mech, I want a response to my question"

getting warmer though

halva, I want you to explain how a "ring" of johnny one note boards would benefit anyones cause?

posted 12-24-2003 09:22 AM            

As it happens i have been a 'convert' since the 90s and don't agree with his position and doubt i should ever bother to argue points with him--though it isn't off the cards that i might sometime find that a particular statement triggers a reply. Should that occur i'm confident that a civil debate might ensue. His alternative view, he is entitled to. Why should i make of it negative assumptions about his sincerity and turn the whole thing into a bone of contention?

As a christian i don't much bother having arguments with muslims. I don't have a problem with their sharing the planet either. I've had a few friendly relationships with some as it happens.

Talk of ringleaders in this context sounds imflammatory frankly. You may have knowledge to substantiate the repeated remark, but it isn't evident. It sounds like prejudice--and considering the way *that* works it might be expected that even having the temerity to make the point is likely to get me nominated as an existing member of the mythical 'ring'. This process could be called many things, 'appalling' will do.

'Pharaisees' is inflammatory also, carrying as they do the particular reputation for vileness and aggressively and violently expressed ignorance--culpable ignorance at that. All of which is, of course, why you chuck the label in there.

While you have here the 'members only' chemtrail forum from which all debunkers and the less than persuaded are barred, it is utterly beyond me why you should get so out of shape about this man's occasional appearance in other parts of the site when his words are not even offensive, unless you are offended simply by alternative opinion.

Another inherent irony you might take on board. Were it not for this ongoing 'noise' i doubt i would have bothered to look at this man's writing (PHX), others may well have had a similar response. So the upshot is that what you actually accomplish is a wider audience for the very views you are so adamant should not be encountered at all. As they say there is no such thing as bad publicity.

posted 12-24-2003 10:42 AM            

The Final, Decisive Battle Between
Good and Evil": CHEMTRAILS
http://www.world-action.co.uk/battle.html http://www.stop-chemtrails.com/battle.html

Here is more evidence that key Hopi warnings to the world may very well refer to the present heinous and hideous 'Global Chemtrail Spraying' of highly
unhealthy substances.

Note: Someone said yesterday that 'Chemtrails' may turn out to be 'a blessing in disguise'. I have
been thinking recently -- I think many of us see this -- that the world is so asleep that only something which threatens all life on Earth in a very serious
way will be sufficient to stir enough of us out of the lethargy and sleep we have been intentionally put into. Therefore where Hopi tradition here says 'Liberators' it could be referring to the situation where a very bad event eventually wakens, and liberates, the whole world because it wakes and unites the whole world:
http://terkelowna.tripod.com/chemtrails/id27.html http://www.tribalmessenger.org/prophecies/hopi-hopi.htm

Hopi elder, Dan Evehema.....
<<<< "The liberators will come in from the west with great force. They will drop down from the sky like rain. They will have no mercy. We must not get on the house tops to watch. They will shake us by our ears, like children who have been bad. This will be the final decisive battle between good and evil. This battle will cleanse the heart of people and restore our mother earth from illness and the wicked will be
gotten rid of." >>>>

1) 'Liberators' --- An event / situation so serious it will awaken and unite the world?

2) 'Come in from the West' --- Chemtrail observers on the West Coast of the USA report off-shore, massive Chemtrail spraying which sweeps inland, eastwards. If these weather systems go as far as Arizona, the Hopi will experience it coming in
from the West.

3) 'They will drop down from the sky like rain'
--- Chemtrails

4) 'They will have no mercy' --- Chemtrails

5) 'We must not get on the house tops to watch'
--- Masses of people are stating that they try to keep indoors when there is heavy Chemtrail spraying.

6) 'They will shake us by our ears, like children who have been bad' --- Is this saying we have not been good human beings? That there is something we have been missing? Not being fully alive?
And "shake us by our ears" may mean this really is time to listen. The other Hopi text I have published says we must "reform", 'reform' may also mean
we need to 'form back up' into a united and awake Humanity.

7) 'This will be the final decisive battle between good and evil' --- (And about time too.)

8) 'This battle will cleanse the heart of people' ---
Perhaps this means really wake us up and restore us to fully functioning human beings. Cleansed by fire, the fire of having to act during very testing circumstances.

9) 'restore our mother earth from illness' ---
The Earth is being sickened by terrible chemical, biological, and electromagnetic pollution and deliberate poisoning by the Mad Powers That Be.

10) 'the wicked will be gotten rid of' ---
Now, THAT is an aim worth going for.

Hopi elder, Dan Evehema.....
<<<< "The liberators will come in from the west with great force. They will drop down from the sky like rain. They will have no mercy. We must not get on the house tops to watch. They will shake us by our ears, like children who have been bad. This will be the final decisive battle between good and evil. This battle will cleanse the heart of people and restore our mother earth from illness and the wicked will be gotten rid of." >>>>
http://terkelowna.tripod.com/chemtrails/id27.html http://www.tribalmessenger.org/prophecies/hopi-hopi.htm
http://www.world-action.co.uk/battle.html http://www.stop-chemtrails.com/battle.html http://www.world-action.org/battle.html

-----------------------------

HOPI MESSAGE TO THE WORLD:
------ "Unite and Arise for Survival" ------
http://www.stop-chemtrails.com/navohti.html http://www.world-action.co.uk/navohti.html

Hopi elder, Dan Evehema.....
"We will see A HALO OF MIST around the heavenly bodies. Four times it will appear around the Sun as a warning that we must reform, telling us that people
of all colour must unite and arise for survival, and that we must uncover the causes of our dilemmas. Unless man-made weapons are used to strike first, peace will then come."

I have always believed this warning to be the final Hopi 'Navohti' warning to Humanity.

It is also reported Hopi elder Dan Evehema has said this: "The time will come when from the earth will arise a mystic fog which will dilute the minds and hearts of all people."

More and more people are experiencing mists
and fogs, and rains and storms, that are full of unpleasant smells... odours of chemicals, pesticide-like smell, and so on. This is the global 'Chemtrails' spraying operation.
http://www.stop-chemtrails.com/navohti.html http://www.world-action.co.uk/navohti.html

------------ STOP CHEMTRAILS ------------
------ "Unite and Arise for Survival" ------

---------------------------------
http://www.world-action.co.uk http://www.stop-chemtrails.com

Please Forward - Thank You

posted 12-24-2003 12:19 PM            

I'm sorry you disagree with my descision regarding PHX pilot...but I don't feel he did anything that would constitutute a banning.If you can't accept it, sorry, nothing personal.

A lot of people hate me here. It won't stop me from being a moderator or enjoying this forum.

Halva:"--So, to get to the heart of the matter: why, Mech, when you apply a policy of zero-tolerance for troublemakers at your own NNWO forum, do you want it to be on the record that you did not vote for the exclusion of a ringleader troublemaker from this forum, and thus assured that he would not be excluded.--

First of all wayne, EVERYONE is invited at my forum provided they don't cause trouble..all 16 of them.Lol! I started the forum...therefore I make the rules. Much like how Thermit started CTC..therefore HE makes the rules.

I never viewed PHX Pilot(the student pilot)..the "Ringleader" of anything.He just felt strongly about his beliefs.

What I find funny Wayne is how you are attacking ME, and yet I didn't vote you off the Council.

Ive said it before and I'll say it again...

posted 12-24-2003 12:43 PM            

To orgonote (and this is the ONLY thing I have to say to you), the meaning of my posting of the screed from your compatriot Michael Irving was: talk to him, not to me.
This is a real request.

posted 12-24-2003 07:26 PM            

His end position with me was essentially this, i am not interested in anything that might remove chemtrails because without them there is no evidence to ask those who put them there to stop putting them there.

I don't know, perhaps that is your position too. I know you aren't interested in orgonite, and you can bet i'm not interested in writing to the orange men of portsmouth for crying out loud, so perhaps your right and we have nothing to talk about.

Suit yourself and carry on squabbling if that's your forte.

Enjoy your christmas in any case --- i'm NOT your enemy.

posted 12-25-2003 06:05 AM            

Suckingeggs has also come to grief in his relations with Michael Irving over a similar disagreement. But orgonote and suckingeggs also disagree with each other over the more arcane aspects of orgone. I had not remembered this element in Orgonote’s outlook when I suggested that he talk to Michael Irving rather than to me.

posted 12-25-2003 03:46 PM            

That appeals to me, that is what i am interested in. Period.

You seem to delight in nit- picking and pinning down every detail, so it seems i must match you in this pedantry contest you are bent on, since you don't get the facts right in this case and yet inflate their significance.

FIRST. Michael Irving's position as i characterised it did not need translation for the unitiated. It meant just what it said. Now i have to faff about again with the issue to clarify it in the wake of your obfuscating 'translation'

SECOND. No question of his 'purchasing orgone generators' was ever raised. My initial question to him was why the technology was never discussed or referred to as even existing let alone possibly useful, anywhere on his website? Did he in fact know about it? Why did he not appear interested in making available from his UK website the excellent 'clouds of death DVD' (for free incidentally? Was he aware of it? Could he help me with isle of man contacts to negotiate sites on private property to host chem-busters (no question of his having to put his own hand in his pocket)

THIRDLY. It became apparent that he was ignorant of the real possibilities of chem-busters and preferred to remain that way. He made no comment about and had nothing to offer in respect of contacts there, and made no comment either about the DVD question.

IN THE END i suggested he was typical of rather many in this 'game' and seemed to me rather more interested in constantly churning the problem in a chicken little sort of way, taking care to stay remote from any REAL efforts to do anything about it. His bottom line position was to the effect of the remarks you felt compelled to 'translate'

if after that you are curious about what my (hopefully) "useful" activities in regard to networking chem-busters and anti tower action in this country are, well you shall just have to remain that way. None of it is web based and involves networking with REAL people around this country. This is because i have learnt to my cost that forums alleging interests in these concerns while full of many worthy people are also thick with viperous liars, poseurs and betrayers. I talk about this stuff with friends, okay?

As to suckingeggs and his perspective on arcane knowledge about orgone or anything else, i have no clue whatsoever. All i know of the man is his unpleasant and offensive internet personna. He has never replied to any email of mine on any subject. He is yet bent on some personal crusade to tarnish whatever reputation i may have, wherever he can do it. You would have to ask him why, i do not know beyond the conviction he touts that i am an MI6 agent. I note of course that he is even free to do it here, reflecting ill, imho, on the council of this forum of which he is or was or maybe a member. That to be frank STINKS.

So if we in fact disagree 'over the more arcane aspects of orgone' i just don't know and fail to see how you could. The disagreement lies in his thinking me an agent and me knowing i'm not, okay?

Whilst i am only posting on this board because you asked me to come over here back then, now you seem to have cast me in some enemy camp and will ONLY talk to me about whatever it was up the thread. Metaphorically you seem to be having a sort of tantrum, presumably because you have been unable to secure me as a means toward 2 or 3 political ends you were pursuing, and because i failed to see the real substance in the beef you were having (and apparently still are) with PHX, and had the temerity to suggest as much, on topic and in the relevant threads.

It all seems no more than childish to me.

And have a miserable christmas if you prefer. *I* would wish you a happy one.

If 'attitude' like this is your principle stock in trade, as it presently appears to be, then indeed we would seem to have nothing to talk about. I gave up dealing with such nonsense years ago and i'm not going there again. So drop the superior attitude and get off my case, because there IS none. In short leave me alone.

posted 12-26-2003 12:29 AM            

quote:

---

Why did he not appear interested in making available from his UK website the excellent 'clouds of death DVD' (for free incidentally? Was he aware of it?

---

This promotional video prominently featured video footage shot a member of this website who owns the copyright to it, being the photographer. The person who is responsible for the 'Clouds of Death' video did not contact the owner of the video to ask for permission to duplicate and distribute the video (nor attempt to obtain permission through the webmaster who agreed to provide the server space to host the videos, I know this beacuse that would have been me).

Now it's it not the illegality of it that bothers me, it 's not even the ethicality. The man wants to sell an over-sized (big hint) magic wand and rip some video off the web to cut production costs, well, who am I to judge?

What really bugs me is that Clouds of Death, while being less than original in visual content, sends the rather poorly presented message that the purpose of this intentional manipulation of the atmosphere is, as the title subtlely implies, a genocidal program of population reduction via biological weapons.

I can't say the thought never crossed my mind, but most thinking people who have taken a litttle time to research the subject don't give it a lot of credence.

Frankly, the narrator seems to be more interested in manipulating his intended audience than informing them of the facts and letting them draw their own educated opinions (a tactic more often employed by the self-styled sceptics and salaried employees that involve themselves in the controversy than legitmate researchers and activists).

posted 12-26-2003 12:46 AM            

Whatever my irritation at my exclusion from the Council, venting personal irritation or antagonism against you or anyone else on the non-debunker side would now be self-defeating because it would provide further ammunition for debunkers to use either against me, as a thwarted authoritarian, or against CTC, as anti-democratic, or both, since consistency or coherence is the last thing they care about. What they want is to be able to attack whoever and whatever they choose, whenever they choose.

Let me try to analyse the situation and see if I can propose some improvements.

What initiated the recent chain of events in the Council was a remark by Eric, opening the Questions thread in the CT Science section. I joined dialogue with him because he professed not to be a debunker. He claimed to be interested in discussing why there are so many debunkers (his assertion) if chemtrails are a reality.

When I put forward one or two ideas on this subject, PHX Pilot, with his well-known omniscient air, joined in. In Eric’s next posting it became obvious to me that that his claim not to be a debunker was false. I therefore reacted, firstly against Eric and then, when Wolf joined in, against him too.

What had taken place was a debunker ambush, of the kind that could have befallen any unsuspecting newbie to CTC, and often does.

The ambushers were trying to force a sterile discussion, on contrails vs chemtrails, something I could not be bothered arguing with anybody
because in my opinion it is not the proper approach to the subject of chemtrails/geoengineering. But a newbie might feel he/she had to try to argue on the debunkers’ terms, and so they would bamboozler him/her.

My view is that we have to make it more difficult for there to be ambushes of this kind, which can very easily take place outside the Chemtrails restricted section (and even that section is not debunker-free).

You say, Mech, that you can’t see how PHX Pilot did anything that could justify banning him. Let us start from what he claims to believe. He says:
“There are FAR FAR FAR too many people involved in the successful airline flight to keep a gigantic tank of chemicals a secret for more than 5 minutes. There are dozens of people looking over every inch of that aircraft while it is on the ground. If you had a gigantic tank of anything, it would be noted, investigated, and promptly revealed to everyone involved with the operation of the flight. This is completely nonsense to believe that an operation of the size needed to produce the chemtrail operation could stay secret for so long. The list of people that would know about within 1 hour is longer than I can possibly type out.
Conclusion: There are far too many holes in the chemtrail theory for me to take it as fact. Until this changes, I will continue to be highly, highly skeptical of "chemtrails" actually existing.”
Anyone who has come to an understanding of the realities of what is going on will lose any tolerance for assertions of this kind, unless they are prone to a peculiar
mystique of freedom of speech and care more about the liar’s freedom of speech than their own freedom of speech in controverting the liar.

It is impossible to know whether someone who says what PHX Pilot says is sincere or not. Whether or not they were sincere they would say the same thing. We don’t have to assume they ARE sincere.

When you say: “I never viewed PHX Pilot (the student pilot)..the "Ringleader" of anything. He just felt strongly about his beliefs,” you are just ASSUMING he feels strongly about his beliefs. You don’t know anything about how he feels or whether they really are his beliefs. You are also not taking into account that relatively clever and sophisticated people automatically operate as poles of attraction and encouragement for those who are less clever and less sophisticated. It’s no good having defences only against rude and uncouth opponents. We must also be able to deal also with the smooth and deceitful people who lead them.

Of course, given the existing CTC rules, the only grounds I was given for challenging PHX Pilot was his wilful misrepresentation of the Council as an authoritarian mechanism aggressively targeting the freedom of speech of debunkers. (We have now seen how very much opposite to the truth that is, but nevertheless the person who slandered the Council in this way has now been rewarded for doing so.)

There was of course his later spamming over more than one thread of his appeals to the Council that he had just accused of being the enemy of his freedom of speech, to discipline me (which it did, finally). But that was not enough to persuade more than four out of nine Council members that he deserved expulsion.

If there were an additional clause in the regulations saying that “CTC moderators reserve the right to exclude from the forum any person falsely claiming to know that a very large-scale programme of aerosol (chemtrail) spraying is not being implemented, or indicating explicitly or by his/her attitude or manner of that he/she regards as unworthy of serious consideration claims made by other participants that they do have knowledge of the reality of such an ongoing aerosol spraying programme,” then it would have been much easier to remove PHX Pilot or at least use the threat of his removal to combat ambush-style behaviour by debunkers.

Mech, please don’t tell me one is free to have one’s opinion. If the building is on fire we do not recognize the rights of freedom of speech of those who tell us that it isn’t. If the showers are poison gas ducts, we do not say the guards who call the victims paranoid – you know, they are really and truly just showers!! – are free to express their opinion.

Once we have realized that the showers are poison gas ducts we don’t listen to guards who are highly sceptical of the showers being poison gas ducts. Should we be obliged to? That is what you told me by failing to support my motion to kick PHX Pilot off the forum, a failure that you are proud of, and want to be on the record so that debunkers know about it.

You may not want to use the clause I proposed as strictly as I would have if it had been available to me. O.K. I am now off the Council and you can do whatever you like. Not wanting to use it strictly is not a reason for not having it. We should have the power to deal with troublemakers who are not rude and stupid but who are shrewd and calculated. It doesn’t matter whether you agree that PHX Pilot is like that or not. Now that you are the moderator and you decide, you don’t have to use the clause against him if, unlike me, you don’t think he is.

What is really at stake here is whether Americans can liberate themselves or whether like the Germans, you have to be liberated from without by foreigners..

posted 12-26-2003 02:20 AM            

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by halva:

[Mech, please don’t tell me one is free to have one’s opinion.]

[It is impossible to know whether someone who says what PHX Pilot says is sincere or not. Whether or not they were sincere they would say the same thing. We don’t have to assume they ARE sincere. ]

[What is really at stake here is whether Americans can liberate themselves or whether like the Germans, you have to be liberated from without by foreigners..]

posted 12-26-2003 05:40 AM            

PHX Pilot did not break forum rules as far as I could tell...and most of the council had already agreed to that. AGAIN I'm sorry you can't respect OUR positions.

"-- It’s no good having defences only against rude and uncouth opponents. We must also be able to deal also with the smooth and deceitful people who lead them.--"

No Wayne you've got it wrong...

People are banned mostly for either making threats, trolling heavily, slandering others or generally breaking Thermits rules repeatedly. You can't ban someone just because you disagree with them.

My descision was final and so were the other council members.