posted 04-07-2002 08:49 PM            

Governments have become more and more involved with what they call "the war." War is just another name for the manipulation of the consciousness of the sleeping masses that there might be greater wealth for the wealthy and more power for those who believe they are in control. There have been cries from the peoples, saying "We need." The governments have not heard the cry of their own peoples, nor will they, for they are involved in those struggles of power and monies and control.

posted 04-09-2002 06:53 PM            

if you can sit through this link below and still say that war is not necessary...well..nevermind...just check it out...

http://www.politicsandprotest.org/

posted 04-09-2002 09:40 PM            

[I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine...War is hell.]

Sherman, William, General (1820 - 1891)
US general. Attrib. in address, Michigan Military Academy, 19 June 1879, 1879  

posted 04-10-2002 03:44 AM            

strengthening the boarders and a completely reformed INS is what we need the most,we have no business in the middle-east, and they should settle their own differences....

but alas won't play out that way...you cannot reason with a man that does not want peace, but only the destruction of jews and israel....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1920000/1920463.stm

Saudi's paying for suicide bombers

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=09042002-050314-4015r

9 months ago I'd say you were nuts if you said we'd be involved in a war...on anything substantial....

posted 04-10-2002 05:49 PM            

During this most recent Israeli siege, upwards to 500 (an counting) Palestinian fighters and civilians have been maimed and killed at the Jenin Refuge Camp, while little to no food, water or medical help is allowed into the area to deal with the dead bodies and relieve the suffering of so many. People have been reduced to drinking their own urine and sewer water for water.

What is the major news during this time: How much Israel is suffering because some of their soldiers got killed and because there was another suicide bomber attack. Well, suicide bombers may be repugnant, but I also find repugnant blowing up hundreds of Palestinian homes, destroying their orchards, building illegal settlements on their land (paid for mainly by the U.S. taxpayer), keeping thousands of Palestinians in prison and torturing them with impunity for many years--many without charges, micro-managing every single segment of a people's lives, controlling all their resources--all this occurring many, many, many years--not just recently.

Israel's now complaining of the mortars coming from Lebanon, the country where Israel in 1982 killed about 17,000 civilians while destroying the infrastructure of the country. Does is occur to anyone that these mortars might be in response to Israeli atrocities in the occupied territories?

For more information on Israel, I recommend the books by Victor Ostrovsky, a former Mossad officer, entitled: By Way of Deception, and The Other Side of Deception. I also recommend, if any are interested in some honest reporting on the Middle East, the magazine: Washington Report On Middle East Affairs. They often cover the hundreds of thousands of dollars pro-Israel lobbies and pacs give American politicians to do their bidding. It matters not how many Jews live within a Congressperson's district, Jewish organizations such as AIPAC (American-Israel Public Affairs Committee) make sure that that Congressman or person running for Congress is persuaded to vote the correct way when it comes to Israel.

The U.S. has given Israel up to $400-$500 billion in aid over these many years--much of it hidden in our military budget and decisions made favoring Israel in the economic sector which are never published by the media.

For an article concerning our bought and paid for Congress, see http://www.rense.com/general23/cong.htm entitled:

Congress Nearly United Behind Israel
Few Speak Out Against West Bank Attacks
By Edward Epstein
SF Chronicle Washington Bureau
4-10-2

Two articles concerning the Israeli military:
http://www.rense.com/general23/800lbgorilla.htm

'800-lb Gorilla' Paid For
By US Taxpayers
By David Wood
Newhouse News Service
4-11-2

And http://www.rense.com/general23/secretmilitarypravda.htm

Secret Military Agreement
Between US And Israel - Pravda
By Timothy Bancroft-Hinchey
PRAVDA.Ru
4-11-2

posted 04-12-2002 12:30 AM            

what ever, I'll post a map below, I would like you to take a look at all the territory owned by arab countries, then observe how small a country israel is (brown), then think why did arafat turn down a agreement that would have returned 90% of the occupied territories (67') ?, then scratch your head, and come to the realization that arafat, and the palestinian powers that suck ...DON"T WANT PEACE !

If arafat agrees to anything, other than the elimination of israel as a state, and the people too, he will be killed...

Another point of view on this...

http://www.browndailyherald.com/stories.cfm?ID=4849

posted 04-12-2002 04:40 AM            

Speaking of Palestinian terrorism, if anyone is interested in Israeli atrocities and terrorism against the Palestinians and others, here is a place to start: http://google.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=Israeli+atrocities&hc=0&hs=0 . There are 26,800 web pages to look at.

Specifically, http://www.geocities.com/vialls2/zion.html , which concerns Ariel Sharon and his Stern Gang's terrorism against Israel in order to gain political leverage, and writes about how Sharon and his Stern Gang blew up the Ben Yehudah Mall in Jerusalem, killing 10 people and injuring 170, and then proceeded to blame this on the Palestinians. The Stern Gang is a Jewish terrorist group of several hundred members, founded in 1940. They gained early notarity for blowing up the King David Hotel (killing many Israeli Jews), among many other structures. Sharon and his Stern Gang have never changed their mode of operation.

ISRAELI RESERVISTS' STATEMENT

. We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

. We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

. We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

. We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF's human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

. We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

. We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

. We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humilate an entire people.

. We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel's defense.

. The mission of occupation and oppession do not serve this purpose--and we shall take no part in them.

A LETTER TO THE SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, FROM AN ISRAELI DISSENTER
February 6, 2002 (as published):

Regarding the article, "Israeli soldiers defy their battle orders" (Feb. 2): When dissenting reservists declare their refusal to "fight beyond the Green Line with the aim of dominating, expelling, starving and humiliating an entire people," it's time the United States took notice.

For anyone who is still wondering why so many millions of people hate us and consider us the great Satan, it's not because we eat cheeseburgers, drive SUVs and live in a democracy. It's because of our government's foreign policies.

Though President Bush recently referred to Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon as his "friend," many Israelis have joined the majority of the free world in condemning Sharon's oppressive regime.

Israel's crimes against the Palestinians don't infuriate just the Arab world, but Israelis too. What if we Americans stood up and refused to let our government support Israel's terror? It could create freedom and democracy for the Palestinians and a few million fewer enemies for the United States.

Hannah Miller, San Francisco, CA

posted 04-12-2002 04:26 PM            

maybe you could go on over and help in the cause bob...they are putting bombs on little children and women, I'm sure knowing these facts, they would have one to fit you...shoot the saudi's are having a telethon right now to help pay the families of suicide bombers...

the both of you seem to be immersed in nightly news palestinian favoritism and internet tabloid *fiction* ....

posted 04-12-2002 05:35 PM            

Just because the Likud (Stern and Irgun gangs, who called themselves "Freedom Fighters" while the British called them "Terrorists") government in Israel says the Palestinians are responsible for the suicide bombings, does not mean they are. Just check out what Victor Ostrovsky, former Mossad Intelligence Officer, has to say in his books BY WAY OF DECEPTION and THE OTHER SIDE OF DECEPTION.

One doesn't have to look at the tabloid press for information on Ariel Sharon and his Stern Gang. Ariel Sharon and the Stern Gang's inhumanity to man in numerous countries over dozens of years is well documented in the mainstream press. A Belgian Appeals Court has agreed to new hearings, re-opening of arguments, in the war crimes case against Ariel Sharon and other Israelis and Lebanese. See http://www.indictshavon.net/ , INTERNATIONAL CAMPAIGN FOR JUSTICE FOR VICTIMS OF SABRA & SHATILA.

I do not believe that Ariel Sharon and his Stern Gang are in the best interests of the Israeli people, and there are a great number of Israeli people who would agree with me.

Concerning the unsuccessful deal that offered the Palestinians 90 percent of their own land for peace. What follows are a few of the conditions that would be forced on the remaining 10 percent by Israel:

. Maintaining roadblocks
. Demanding total control of Palestinian airspace
. Maintaining these major settlements with Israeli garrisons
. Maintaining American Indian-style reservations (West Bank and Gaza)
. Demanding control of every inch of shared border.

posted 04-13-2002 02:42 AM            

I have no doubt that the israelis are strictily interpreting the Bible in " an eye for an eye x7 " truth is the blood on both sides needs to stop spilling, and an offer is on the table...

the palestinian leadership has failed the people in a big way with it's *all or nothing policy*...you did not list the complete concessions of israel in this matter...

giving up 90% of territory israel's owned for 34 years is statement enough...

btw, what do you think arafat was really going to do with that "tanker-ship" full of weapons...hmmmm ?

posted 04-16-2002 01:36 AM            

Up To 500 Palestinian Dead Left
Rotting In Streets Of Jenin
By Timothy Bancroft-Hinchey
PRAVDA.Ru
4-15-2

Also, Article:

The Myth Of Camp David -
Part Of The US-Israeli
Disinfo Campaign
By Chris Marsden
WSWS.org
4-20-2
http://www.rense.com/general24/dis.htm