posted 02-22-2002 08:50 AM            

What do you think guys 'n' gals? Chemtrail connection?

posted 02-22-2002 06:57 PM            

Regardless of what you think contrails are made of, everyone seems to agree that they block out the sun's rays. Indeed, one of the hypotheses for the use of covert contrail operations is that they are placed there to do just that -- block out the sun's rays.

If chemtrails as a deliberately sprayed phenomenon exist, it's certainly not to cool down the planet, given the data from the article you quoted. Either that, or they're not working very well.

Regrds,

Duncan Kunz
Mesa, AZ

February 17-23: National Engineer's Week
"We turn Dreams into Reality"

posted 02-22-2002 11:14 PM            

Typically, though, the net change is a decrease over the 24-hour period. In other words, the cloud cover may keep the days ten degrees cooler during the day and eight degrees warmer at night. Overall, the net temperature is two degrees less.

But the very fact that the temperature delta (change) is smaller, which can cause possible climatic changes, is what worries me. Heat is the engine that drives weather and climate; and our weather and climate is based on, say, land temperature that changes 30 degrees from day to night. With cloud cover, this day-to-night delta might be only 12 or 15 degrees instead of 30.

No one knows just what the long-term effects of the decreased delta are, because climate is a very complex system and even our most powerful supercomputers can't accurately model it in real time. But the fact that it is different than it has been over the past hundreds of years has me concerned.

Even us debunkers are worried that increased cloud cover doesn't bode well for long-term climate!

Regards,

Duncan Kunz
Mesa, Arizona

posted 02-23-2002 02:39 AM            

well that assumption would depend on your location...Typically (last 3 years) in NW Oklahoma a *winter* night with cloud cover hovers in the mid 30's....and without cloud cover can reach the single digits (pipe breaking weather)...you may be using a global reference duncan, I dunno...but cloud cover at night here has far more influence on temperature than a 2 degree difference...

assigning general explanations for weathers behavior..is a bit like trying to predict it...

Even us debunkers are worried that increased cloud cover doesn't bode well for long-term climate!

worried is a strong word, serious air traffic influence is 10's of years away on a global scale (radiative forcing) , the earth is a big place, and the earth will do what it does... there's nothing we can do about it, except watch for a serious plant growth explosion, when I'm mowing in November there's trouble....pollen has already shown some signs of increasing...(allergies)....

Discovery had a good program about the mayans and the drought that may have been the reason for their disappearance and some mass graves....computer models showed (using data from tree rings and core samples) a weather pattern change in the atlantic that may have removed seasonal moisture from the rain-forest...considering they have no lakes, and water other than the rains...makes sense to me...

In all seriousness attaching *value* to any weather stats regarding today's weather that are not during a recorded period of history in an 11 solar cycle, is skewd data...

IMHO

Summer weather wonders

T/S

posted 02-23-2002 03:56 PM            

The two-degree delta I used was simply an illustrative example. The delta is driven by the type/density and altitude of the cloud cover, latitude, distance from large bodies of water, season of the year, existing weather patterns, solar cycles and (perhaps) epicycles, and who knows what else. That's why it's so hard to model climate and weather.

And, not being a climatologist or having ever taken any climatology or meteorology courses, all I know is what I read in the laymans' literature, e.g. SciAm, Discovery, and the Apache Junction Nickel Ads.

But I do know that biota expand to fill every niche, and that the niches can be very subtle. For example, there are cacti here whose flowers reflect certain wavelengths of IR or UV under moonlight that can be picked up by one single species of moth, and no other species. And everyone knows about the figs and the wasps.

My point is that if plants have developed and expanded into a niche that features a 20-deg F delta during the monsoon season in Aug-Sep; and a 34-deg F delta during the early summer, any change to that delta could seriously impact the ability of that particular plant to propagate and thus survive. And if that particular plant has an endemic animal consumer (or even a plant, if it's a saprophyte or something), then plant A going away takes plant B, and animals 1,2, 46a, and 987 with it.

The Sonoran Desert, despite its tough exterior, is a very, very fragile ecosystem. A hard freeze for 24 hours below 3000 ft ASL wold probably kill every cactus except the Opuntia varieties. Some of these bad boys -- like the Saguaro -- take a hundred years to reach maturity. During that hundred-year window while the desert slowly began to re-seed itself, you could have another, faster-breeding plant species come and take over the entire ecosystem.

And you could imagine what THAT would do the background of Western movies....

Duncan

posted 02-24-2002 02:32 AM            

I certanly understand your point, and natural selection I believe is the process...the moral argument saying if *we* have a part in it...is it wrong...

I think we should be kind to our environment because it would be in the best interest of our own self preservation that we do...

but also I don't think we should let environmental preservation over-ride our best interest in prosperity...

And, not being a climatologist or having ever taken any climatology or meteorology courses, all I know is what I read in the laymans' literature, e.g. SciAm, Discovery, and the Apache Junction Nickel Ads.

me either, most of where I base my opinion from is reading Dr. Minnis' work, and or an e-mail or 2... he wrote (paraphrasing)"that a possibility of an added 20% of cloud cover (U.S) due to contrails in our atmosphere,and when spread over the world was only 2-3%....

which contrails does tie in with climatology quite nicely...at the very least a concern for the future....

some regional areas are more prone to contrails and others not, and weather patterns dictate the stage for the display of contrails....so the cause and effect is a difficult and hard to predict blurry line...

me being someone who does lotza work outside, the extra cover on those 100+ summer days is a welcome friend...

I'm going to make home-made ground to jar salsa this year...wish me luck...and on those hot days a few diffused clouds...

T/S

posted 02-25-2002 02:31 AM            

habanero does not scare you does it...lol !

posted 02-25-2002 08:07 AM            

(Okay, that was a bit of an exaggeration. I have to admit that we rinse them afterwards in jalapeņo-juice, especially for the older and weaker among us.)

posted 02-25-2002 09:07 AM            

Beautiful weekend...60's and 70's...a few trails, but they didn't stick around. Supposed to get down to 18 degrees Wednesday night! Bizarre. We have a saying down here. If you don't like the weather, stick around a few minutes and it'll change.

The jet stream used to stay right over us and you could actually predict the weather once in a while. But, it moved to the north and our weather has been weird and unpredictable ever since. Maybe part of why we see more trails?

Stay away from that tequila!

posted 02-25-2002 11:00 AM            

[I'm going to make home-made ground to jar salsa this year...wish me luck...and on those hot days a few diffused clouds...]
T/S ..........me too

posted 02-26-2002 03:10 AM            

sure...

canned heat !

1 1/2 cups fresh corn
1 1/2 cups green beans
1 1/2 cups of carrots
1/2 bunch green onions sliced very thin with green part!
1/2 bunch cilantro
1 yellow onion chopped
25-35 cherry or 3-4 med tomatoes diced
1 tlb-spoon of garlic salt
1 lime - juiced
2-3 habaneros chopped
2 jalapeno chopped (optional afterburn)
1 tsp salt
2 tsp olive oil
1/2 tsp pepper

I like to take half the tomatoes (peeling cherry's is a drag), onion cilantro etc, all but corn and g beans and blend to a semi chunky fine...been known to use whatever is current in the garden as ingredients at the time as well..

then add to the rest of the bowl and mix...can it and bury it in the back yard under a full moon for 3 days...

then serve with tortilla chips -- the restaurant kinds are best (most Mexican restaurants will let you buy their chips for cheaper than a bag of Tostitos). If you can't get to a restaurant, Baked Tostitos will do just fine....

the secret ingredient is secret...and if I told you...well...you know....

enjoy...