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  Gulf War II (Page 27)

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Topic:   Gulf War II

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Senior Member

832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 04-01-2003 11:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastwalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rather than read this thread,....I thought I'd just post this;

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Senior Member

832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 04-01-2003 11:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastwalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

We've just been notified by Security that there have been 6 suspected terrorists working out of your office. Five of the six have been apprehended. Bin Sleepin, Bin Loafin, Bin Goofin, Bin Lunchin and Bin Drinkin have been taken into custody.

Our agent advised us that they could find no one fitting the description of the sixth cell member, Bin Workin, at your office. Security is confident that anyone who looks like he's Bin Workin will be very easy to spot.

You are obviously not a suspect at this time.

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Chemtrail Information Agent

1245 posts, Oct 2000

posted 04-01-2003 11:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the above is the intellectual way to rip someone's ass...

What a laugh! You an intellectual,LOL. Do all intellectuals dream of having sex with monkeys or is it just you, monkeyboy?

And you don't work, lazy bum, are you on welfare or do you panhandle to make ends meet? Didn't you blast, numerous times, Mech when he was out of work, through no choice of his own. But you chose not to work? LOL.

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One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3297 posts, Jul 2000

posted 04-01-2003 11:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
david I'm not out of work...I don't have too...and I haven't had too for a year and 4 months....

for your own good stop conversing with me...

I don't like you (no one else does either) and your just plain sleazy...

don't get yourself in trouble over hubris...

last warning

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Chemtrail Information Agent

1245 posts, Oct 2000

posted 04-01-2003 11:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for David     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Owwwwww a warning from the squeeker, you scare the hell out of me monkey boy.
I'm aghast seeker, you don't like me? Well too damn bad, cause I'm not going away, gonna stay right here with it fool.
BTW, for the uneducated electricians in okiehomely,
your just plain

It is either 'you are' or 'you're'.

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One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3297 posts, Jul 2000

posted 04-02-2003 12:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't subscribe to your or anyone's standards of conformity...

and as far as you not going anywhere...

time will tell...

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Chemtrail Information Agent

1245 posts, Oct 2000

posted 04-02-2003 12:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Are you trying to say you don't know how to s-p-e-l-l?

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mark sky

south coast of oregon
2900 posts, Oct 2000

posted 04-02-2003 12:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mark sky     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
you rock David
camp david meeting soon
the scudder uninvited
top of the morning
and all the poppy coke
just trying the english manner\BTW
the elite musik mash

[Edited 1 times, lastly by mark sky on 04-02-2003]

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One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3297 posts, Jul 2000

posted 04-02-2003 01:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
actually I was saying I don't subscribe to your or anyone's standards of conformity......

things a little *slow* in the CT club mark ?

seeing contrails below 39,000 feet really ain't an oddity...oh but they were spray planes weren't they...I wonder if that's a word? is weren't a word mark ? david's on me about my spelling...figured I'd ask you...

[Edited 1 times, lastly by theseeker on 04-02-2003]

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One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3297 posts, Jul 2000

posted 04-02-2003 01:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nat Hentoff
Why I Didn't March This Time

Their Tongues Were Cut Out for Slandering Hussein
March 28th, 2003 3:30 PM

Often, the executions have been carried out by the Fedayeen Saddam, a paramilitary group headed by Mr. Hussein's oldest son, 38-year-old Uday. These men, masked and clad in black, make the women kneel in busy city squares, along crowded sidewalks, or in neighborhood plots, then behead them with swords. The families of some victims have claimed they were innocent of any crime save that of criticizing Mr. Hussein. —John F. Burns, "How Many People Has Hussein Killed?" The New York Times, January 26, 2003


I participated in many demonstrations against the Vietnam War, including some civil disobedience—though I was careful not to catch the eyes of the cops, sometimes a way of not getting arrested. But I could not participate in the demonstrations against the war on Iraq. As I told The New York Sun in its March 14-16 roundup of New Yorkers for and against the war:

"There was the disclosure . . . when the prisons were briefly opened of the gouging of eyes of prisoners and the raping of women in front of their husbands, from whom the torturers wanted to extract information. . . . So if people want to talk about containing [Saddam Hussein] and don't want to go in forcefully and remove him, how do they propose doing something about the horrors he is inflicting on his people who live in such fear of him?"

I did not cite "weapons of mass destruction." Nor do I believe Saddam Hussein is a direct threat to this country, any more than the creators of the mass graves in the Balkans were, or the Taliban. And as has been evident for a long time, I am no admirer of George W. Bush.

The United Nations? Did the inspectors go into the prisons and the torture chambers? Would they have, if given more time? Did they interview the Mukhabarat, Saddam's dreaded secret police?

An Iraqi in Detroit wanted to send a message to the anti-war protesters: "If you want to protest that it's not OK to send your kids to fight, that's OK. But please don't claim to speak for the Iraqis."

In The Guardian, a British paper that can hardly be characterized as conservative, there was a dispatch from Safwan, Iraq, liberated in the first days of the war: "Ajami Saadoun Khilis, whose son and brother were executed under the Saddam regime, sobbed like a child on the shoulder of The Guardian's Egyptian translator. He mopped the tears but they kept coming. 'You just arrived,' he said. 'You're late. What took you so long?' "

The United Nations? In 1994, Kofi Annan, then head of the UN's peacekeeping operations, blocked any use of UN troops in Rwanda even though he was told by his representative there that the genocide could be stopped before it started.

Bill Clinton refused to act as well, instructing the State Department not to use the word genocide because then the United States would be expected to do something. And President Clinton instructed Madeleine Albright, then our representative to the UN, to block any possible attempts to intervene despite Kofi Annan. Some 800,000 lives could have been saved.

The United Nations? Where Libya, Syria, and Sudan are on the Human Rights Commission? The UN is crucial for feeding people and trying to deal with such plagues as AIDS; but if you had been in a Hussein torture chamber, would you, even in a state of delirium, hope for rescue from the UN Security Council?

From Amnesty International, for whom human rights are not just a slogan, on Iraq: "Common methods of physical torture included electric shocks or cigarette burns to various parts of the body, pulling out fingernails, rape. . . . Two men, Zaher al-Zuhairi and Fares Kadhem Akia, reportedly had their tongues cut out for slandering the president by members of Feda'iyye Saddam, a militia created in 1994. The amputations took place in a public square in Diwaniya City, south of Baghdad."

As John Burns of The New York Times wrote in January: "History may judge that the stronger case [for an American-led invasion] . . . was the one that needed no [forbidden arms] inspectors to confirm: that Saddam Hussein, in his 23 years in power, plunged this country into a bloodbath of medieval proportions, and exported some of that terror to his neighbors."

When it appeared that Tony Blair's political career was near extinction, he gave a speech in the House of the Commons, as quoted in the March 18 issue of The Guardian:

"We must face the consequences of the actions we advocate. For me, that means all the dangers of war. But for others, opposed to this course, it means—let us be clear—that the Iraqi people, whose only true hope of liberation lies in the removal of Saddam, for them, the darkness will close back over them again; and he will be free to take his revenge upon those he must know wish him gone.

"And if this house now demands that at this moment, faced with this threat from this regime, that British troops are pulled back, that we turn away at the point of reckoning, and that is what it means—what then?

"What will Saddam feel? Strengthened beyond measure. What will the other states who tyrannise their people, the terrorists who threaten our existence, what will they take from that?. . . Who will celebrate and who will weep?"

The letters section of The New York Times is sometimes more penetrating than the editorials. A March 23 letter from Lawrence Borok: "As someone who was very active in the [anti-Vietnam War] protests, I think that the antiwar activists are totally wrong on this one. Granted, President Bush's insensitive policies in many areas dear to liberals (I am one) naturally make me suspicious of his motives. But even if he's doing it for all the wrong reasons, have they all forgotten about the Iraqi people?"

And, in the March 23 New York Times Magazine, Michael Ignatieff, a longtime human rights investigator, wrote of "14,000 'writers, academics, and other intellectuals'—many of them my friends—[who] published a petition against the war . . . condemning the Iraqi regime for its human rights violations and supporting 'efforts by the Iraqi opposition to create a democratic, multi-ethnic, and multireligious Iraq.' " But they say, he adds, that waging war at this time is "morally unacceptable."

"I wonder," Ignatieff wrote—as I also wonder—"what their support for the Iraqi opposition amounts to."

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One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3297 posts, Jul 2000

posted 04-02-2003 01:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Middle East - AP

U.S. POW's Rescue Raises Hopes for Others

By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - American troops continued their hunt for prisoners of war in Iraq (news - web sites), buoyed by the rescue in a hospital of an Army supply clerk held for nine days in Nasiriyah.

A dozen other members of Pfc. Jessica Lynch's ambushed unit remain unaccounted for, including five formally listed as prisoners of war. Lynch's status was formally changed to prisoner of war just hours or days before she was rescued, a defense official said Wednesday.

"We also have others, other POWs we are just as worried about," Central Command spokesman Jim Wilkinson said Tuesday. "This is good news today but we need a lot more good news."

A U.S. rescue team freed Lynch, 19, on Tuesday from a hospital in Nasiriyah. Her unit, the 507th Maintenance Company, had been ambushed in the Euphrates River city on March 23 after making a wrong turn.

An intelligence tip led U.S. special operations forces to the hospital in Nasiriyah where Lynch was being held, the defense official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Five of her comrades later showed up in a video shown on Iraqi television being asked questions by their Iraqi captors. The video also showed bodies, apparently of U.S. soldiers, which led Pentagon (news - web sites) officials to accuse Iraq of executing some of its prisoners. Officials believe the video was made in the Nasiriyah area, the defense official said.

Lynch was being treated at a coalition military hospital, according to her father, Greg Lynch Sr. Military officials said they did not know when the Palestine, W.Va., native would be able to return to the United States.

Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks at Central Command headquarters in Qatar announced that a U.S. POW had been rescued but refused to provide any further details.

In a brief statement, Brooks said: "Coalition forces have conducted a successful rescue mission of a U.S. Army prisoner of war held captive in Iraq. The soldier has been returned to a coalition-controlled area."

Fifteen other Americans are formally listed as missing. The other POWs include two Army Apache helicopter pilots captured March 24 after their helicopter went down.

The 507th Maintenance Company was attacked during some of the first fighting in Nasiriyah, a Euphrates River-crossing city where sporadic battles have raged since U.S. troops first reached it. Troops and military officials have said much of the fighting there has involved members of the Fedayeen Saddam and other Iraqi paramilitaries who have dressed as civilians and ambushed Americans.

Lynch, an aspiring teacher, joined the Army to get an education, her family said. She left a farming community with an unemployment rate of 15 percent, one of the highest in West Virginia.

She also was following in the footsteps of her older brother Gregory, a National Guard member based at Fort Bragg, N.C. Jessica Lynch enlisted through the Army's delayed-entry program before graduating from Wirt County High School in Elizabeth, W.Va.

"You would not believe the joys, cries, bawling, hugging, screaming, carrying on," said Lynch's cousin, Pam Nicolais, when asked Tuesday about the rescue. "You just have to be here."

Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., called the rescue a miracle.

"God watched over Jessica and her family," Rockefeller said through a spokesman in Washington. "All of West Virginia is rejoicing. This is an amazing tribute to the skill and courage of our military."

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Resisting the NWO

Northeast USA
3907 posts, Sep 2002

posted 04-02-2003 01:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

An Empire Of Corpses?

The anti-war upsurge indicates that a new American century is impossible

"I left these shores, at Vancouver, a red-hot imperialist. I wanted the American eagle to go screaming into the Pacific.... I said to myself, here are a people who have suffered for three centuries. We can make them as free as ourselves.... But I have thought some more, since then, and I have read carefully the Treaty of Paris, and I have seen that we do not intend to free, but to subjugate the people of the Philippines. We have gone to conquer, not to redeem.... And so I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land."
Mark Twain, The New York Herald, October 15, 1900

Operation "Iraqi freedom", which was to stun the world with its "breathtaking speed", has run aground—even as it continues to wreak death and destruction on Iraq.
The 'Shock and Awe'doctrine is inspired by the effects of atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The most advanced military machine history has ever seen: a force of over 250,000 soldiers, backed by satellites, aircraft carriers, bombers, missiles and all the rest of the instruments of death on which the sole superpower in the world spends a staggering $400 billion
plus a year—all of it, brutally and illegally unleashed against the war-devastated and sanctions-crippled Third World country. And all there is to show for it is the capture of the tiny port town of Umm Qasr, which lies smack on the Kuwaiti border.

American and British military and civilian officials, who were promising the world to ‘shock and awe’ Iraq into submission within a few days, if not hours, are now speaking of weeks. "It’s important for the American people to realise that this war has just begun," George W. was proclaiming on day six of the invasion. The American president’s explanation for the "coalition’s" failure to live up to its promises was as quaint as we’ve all come to expect from him: "It [the war] may seem longer because of all the action on TV," he said.

Retired US Army General Wesley Clark, a cnn analyst and former nato supreme allied commander, had a less eccentric, if considerably more plausible interpretation. The scenario of a quick coalition victory "is not going to happen", he told the American satellite TV network, because of a simple fact: "The liberation didn’t quite occur. They didn’t uprise."

Not only did the Iraqis, who have little love for Saddam Hussein and his regime, not "uprise [sic]", they resisted. "Iraqi freedom" American style is nothing but conquest and subjugation, just as the great American writer, Mark Twain, said it was—over a 100 years ago. A hundred years of experience—from Cuba, the Philippines and Puerto Rico in 1898 to Panama in 1989—is quite sufficient learning time. And was it not those self-same self-styled liberators who, in 1991, bombed and killed tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers, on Iraqi soil, as they were fleeing from Kuwait. Was it not a senior member of the previous "dovish" US administration, Madeleine Albright, who openly said that the deaths of 200,000 Iraqi children was "an acceptable cost" for the "containment" of Saddam Hussein?

The obdurate Iraqi resistance has altered the course of the war. And so has the world’s opposition. On February 15, and before a single shot had been fired, over 30 million had marched, across the globe, in opposition to the then planned war against Iraq—a scene unprecedented in history. It is this upsurge of popular opposition, which continues to this day with demonstrations in the very heart of Washington, which may account for the "coalition’s" initial hesitation to unleash the full murderous wrath of the Pentagon’s "Shock and Awe" doctrine.In the words of its author, US military strategist Harlan Ullman, this doctrine is inspired by the effects of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and "the comatose and glazed expressions of survivors of the great bombardments of World War I and the attendant horrors and death of trench warfare". Not surprisingly, with such grisly source of inspiration, the doctrine recommends "nearly incomprehensible levels of massive destruction".

Scott Ritter, the top UN weapons inspector in Iraq until 1998, predicted in a radio interview in Lisbon on Tuesday, "The US is going to leave Iraq with its tail between its legs, defeated." He insisted, "It is a war we cannot win."

But as much as I would like to believe it, it seems too much to hope for. Nor, sadly, does it seem at all likely that the US and Britain will come to do "the decent thing": stop the carnage and put the whole affair back where it belongs, at the UN. The Bush administration is just too war-hungry, wholly committed to its megalomaniac drive to secure American world domination for decades to come. What we are most likely to see, and indeed, we are beginning to see, are "nearly incomprehensible levels of massive destruction".

Yet, as the American Century which began in Cuba, Guam, Puerto Rico and the Philippines in 1898 is culminated today in Iraq, the stiffness of the resistance of the Iraqi people and the unprecedented upsurge of a global popular opposition to a militaristic American imperial dominion, it seems to me, are powerful indications that a new American century is impossible. The only way the New American Century hooligans’ "blueprint for maintaining global US pre-eminence" can be realised is through global mass murder. An empire of corpses is rather difficult to conceive.

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Resisting the NWO

Northeast USA
3907 posts, Sep 2002

posted 04-02-2003 01:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Marine who said no to killing on his conscience

Fighting not to fight

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Tuesday April 1, 2003
The Guardian

The first American conscientious objector from the Iraq war will give himself up at a marine base in California this morning. He said he believed the war was "immoral because of the deception involved by our leaders".

Stephen Eagle Funk, 20, a marine reserve who was due to be sent for combat duty, is currently on "unauthorised absence" from his unit. He faces a possible court martial and time in military prison for his action.

"I know I have to be punished for going UA," Mr Funk told the Guardian in an interview before surrendering to authorities, "but I would rather take my punishment now than live with what I would have to do [in Iraq] for the rest of my life. I would be going in knowing that it was wrong and that would be hypocritical."

Mr Funk, who is originally from Seattle and is half Filipino, was approached by a recruiting officer last year. At the time, he said, he was depressed after dropping out of a biology course at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles. He was working part-time for a vet and in a pet shop.

His family and friends were surprised by his decision, he said, because they had known him to have liberal political views and not to have been interested in the military.

"I wanted to belong and I wanted another direction in my life, and this seemed to offer it," said Mr Funk. "They told me I would be able to go back to school [university]." Recruits have their college fees paid once they complete their service.

"The ads make the armed forces look so cool - 'Call this number and we'll send you a free pair of boxer shorts' - and a lot of kids don't realise what's involved," he said. Although he graduated from the famously tough marine boot camp in San Diego and excelled as a rifleman during the 12-week induction period, Mr Funk said he had started to have doubts about military service during his training.

"Every day in combat training you had to yell out 'Kill! Kill!' and we would get into trouble if you didn't shout it out, so often I would just mouth it so I didn't get into trouble." The recruits were also encouraged to hurt each other during hand-to- hand combat training. "I couldn't do that so they would pair me up with someone who was very violent or aggressive."

Mr Funk said many recruits were envious of those who were being sent to the Gulf. "They would say things like, 'Kill a raghead for me - I'm so jealous.'"

As a Catholic who attended mass most Sundays during training, he eventually decided to take his concerns to the chaplain. "He said, 'It's a lot easier if you just give in and don't question authority.' He quoted the Bible at me and said, 'Jesus says to carry a sword.'

"But I don't think Jesus was a violent man - in fact, the opposite - and I don't think God takes sides in war _ Everyone told me it was futile to try to get out."

At shooting practice, although he scored well, the instructor told him he had an attitude problem: "I was a little pissed off and I said, 'I think killing people is wrong.' That was the crystallising moment because I had never said it out loud before. It was such a relief."

He became concerned about the reasons for the conflict in Iraq. "This war is very immoral because of the deception involved by our leaders. It is very hypocritical." He is opposed to the use of war as a way of solving problems.

"War is about destruction and violence and death. It is young men fighting old men's wars. It is not the answer, it just ravages the land of the battleground. I know it's wrong but other people in the military have been programmed to think it is OK."

Mr Funk, who is being counselled by conscientious objectors from the 1991 Gulf war, said he had gone public to try to dissuade other young people who had not thought through their reasons for joining the forces. "All they [the military] want is numbers. What I'm doing is really trying to educate people to weigh their options - there are so many more ways to get money for school."

He added: "My mum had a gut feeling it wouldn't work out." Although he does not know what punishment awaits, "it's a risk I'm willing to take".

This morning, accompanied by his lawyer and former conscientious objectors from previous wars, he will arrive at his home base in San Jose, change into his uniform and give himself up.

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Resisting the NWO

Northeast USA
3907 posts, Sep 2002

posted 04-02-2003 01:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Reasons For War

In recent discussions I've had with people who support a war on Iraq one of the issues for them which seems to trump all the others is that they feel Saddam hates America. Are you aware of any actions or statements by Saddam Hussein that would support such an opinion? Has Saddam ever threatened the U.S.?

I have no idea what's in Saddam's head, and even if he hates America (whatever that means), the idea that that could be a justification for war is so lunatic that it's not worth discussing. Even the Nazis didn't go that far.

Has Saddam ever posed a threat to the US? The idea verges on absurdity. Up to 1990, when he committed, by far, his worst crimes, he was a friend and ally of those running the show in Washington today. Far from seeing him as a threat, they even provided him with means to develop weapons of mass destruction. The Gulf war and the sanctions reduced Iraq to the weakest military force in the region. Even the countries Saddam invaded don't regard him as a threat, and have been trying for years to reintegrate Iraq into the region, over strong US objections. The US is alone in the world, to my knowledge, in regarding Iraq as a threat, either military or terrorist. By "US" here I mean the image portrayed by government-media since September, primarily, which has had its effects on popular attitudes.

Super Patriotism, The Media, and Ideological Obedience

Where does this super-patriotism come from, this arrogance (as many non-Americans see it), this idea that the US is almost God-like, that it can do no wrong, that whatever it says or does -- no matter how unfair objectively -- is OK simply because it's the US that does it? When did it originate? Was it always a feature of the American psyche? I suspect the elites and their propaganda system promote this actively and consciously, but did they create it?

It is pretty astonishing. Within two years the Bush administration has succeeded in making the US the most feared nation in the world, and the most disliked, even hated. That's quite an achievement. Conspiracy theorists might conclude they're really working for Bin Laden.

On super-patriotism, yes, it runs through the culture, from way back, but it's not unusual. Britain in its day in the sun was much the same, and the echoes still reverberate. The classic essay on "humanitarian intervention" by John Stuart Mill is a remarkable example -- and interesting particularly because he was a person of quite unusual intelligence and integrity. And the same was true of every other conquering power that I know anything about, even small ones, like Israel.

As to what the roots are, that's a hard question. The consistency suggests it can't be attributed solely to historical peculiarities, though these surely exist. In the US, for example, it was necessary to find some justification for eliminating the indigenous population and running the economy on slavery (including the economy of the north in the early days; cotton was the oil of the 19th century industrial revolution). And the only way to justify having your boot on someone's neck is that you are uniquely magnificent and they are uniquely awful. A leading source of racism, which persist to the present moment, so deeply entrenched in the culture -- of the West generally -- that it is far beyond consciousness and can barely be understood by properly educated people when it is pointed out.

So the answers to your questions are not likely to be simple. Some have sought evolutionary scenarios. The trouble is that these can be concocted for just about anything, and the comparative evidence tells us very little (violent chimpanzees, peaceful bonobo, just as closely related; etc.).

I am wondering, what is your general assessment of the media's treatment of the war in this stage? While it is noticeable that an elite split on the war is a reason for more openness in the media, are you noticing more critical coverage than usual?

I haven't looked at TV except sporadically, including CNN. My impression (it's only that) is that it's basically cheerleading for the home team. Almost worthless, except that one can tease out the basic facts if one can stand the incredible bias, not even concealed. Press coverage is somewhat more complex, though it still overwhelmingly proceeds within the anticipated propaganda framework of an invading army. If you want to look into the matter, a good way would be to compare what you find abroad, not too hard now with internet access for British, Irish, and other press, often in translation these days. I don't like to give a very general impression, and without more specific query, wouldn't know how to proceed.

A suicide attack by military forces resisting an invasion can't possibly be called an act of terrorism. Suppose the Iraqi army were surrounding New York and the Iraqi air force were bombing it unopposed. If an American carried out a suicide attack against the invading forces, would anyone call it "terrorism"? Or a violation of the laws of war? Or would we rather regard it as remarkable heroism, and grant the person an honored place in history?

The US isn't committing state terrorism. This is aggression, pure and simple, a textbook case. Even CNN provides more than enough information to make that conclusion crystal clear. One can perhaps argue that the aggression is justified on some grounds, but there can hardly be any argument about what it is. Again, simply reverse the picture. Suppose that huge Iraqi armies had invaded the US, were attacking cities, etc. Would we call it "state terrorism"?

It's true that news reporting doesn't adopt that framework when the US is the invader, but that gives a good part of the answer to your first question, I think.

Lessons In Power

I am curious to know where you would stand vis a vis North Korea in the event of military action.

As far as I am aware, there's a straightforward reason why the US is not attacking North Korea: it has massed artillery which would quickly wipe out Seoul. I presume that Pentagon planners are working on some way to counter that: maybe precision-guided weapons, maybe tactical nukes, who knows? Certainly not me.

South Korea, Japan, China, in fact just about everyone sane hopes for a peaceful solution of these problems. The least bad approach, though not a great one, is to follow their lead. There are no delightful outcomes in view, but these seem the most hopeful.

Note that the US government is teaching the world a very ugly lesson: if you want to keep us from attacking you, you'd better have a credible deterrent. That's one reason why so much of the mainstream establishment opposes Bush administration adventurism, including the Iraq war, only a special case. They can see that it is likely to increase proliferation of
weapons of mass destruction, terror, and other pretty awful outcomes, if only as a deterrent to a rogue superpower -- as the US is regarded in much of the world, maybe most.

Outcomes And Alternatives To War

With this "war" now underway, and it becoming increasingly clear it will not be over as quickly as U.S. military planners led the public to believe, what outcomes for the war should those who opposed it be hoping for?

The choice was never restricted to war or murderous sanctions that destroy the society and strengthen the dictator. Another possibility was allowing the society to reconstitute so Iraqis could determine their own fate, in which case Saddam Hussein would probably have gone the way of a string of other tyrants supported by the present incumbents in Washington when they were supporting him, and plenty of others. Actions to prevent development of weapons of mass destruction and delivery systems are a different matter -- and should be undertaken throughout the region (in accord with UN Resolution 687, to which Bush-Blair-etc. selectively refer), and in fact the world; we may recall that the nuclear powers are committed to "good faith" efforts to eliminate these awful weapons, which may destroy us all.

Right now, what we should hope for is termination of a destructive war, vast reparations for the victims (or if that is too much to ask, at least aid, which they can use in their own way to reconstruct their society), and measures to increase the likelihood that repressive and brutal regimes will be contained and internally undermined. There's no simple formula that applies for all cases.

The idea that the Iraqis can only be freed from a regime like Saddam's through bombing is really disturbing. This seems to be the message the US is sending through Operation Iraqi Freedom. What, in your view, are alternative policies America could have pursued to help Iraqis other than resorting to a violent and destructive "liberation"?

Probably most of the population of the world regards the US as the major threat to world peace, which is a rather serious matter: a superpower threat to world peace is a threat to survival. If they're right, the world would be much better off (for example, there'd be a higher chance for the survival of the species) if the current regime were eliminated. Or maybe even the institutions of the society. Does it follow that we all ought to join al-Qaeda and try to achieve that goal?

There are a great many horrible regimes in the world. To take just one, the world's longest military occupation. There's litttle doubt that those under the military occupation would be much better off if the occupation were terminated. Does it follow that we should bomb Tel Aviv?

It's easy to continue. Such questions can, perhaps, be raised by those who regard themselves as God-like, entitled to determine how to use violence to "rid the world of evil," as in fairy tales and ancient epics. Are we so exalted that we have the right to make such decisions?

We all agree that Iraqis would be better off without Hussein. Just as their subjects would have been better off without Ceausescu, Suharto, Marcos, Duvalier, Mobutu, ... -- quite a long list. I've just listed those who were supported by the present incumbents in Washington, just as they supported Saddam Hussein. Some, like Ceausescu, were easily comparable to Saddam Hussein as tyrants and torturers. All were overthrown, from within.

There's every reason to believe that Saddam Hussein would have gone the same way if the US hadn't insisted on devastating the civilian society, strengthening the tyrant, and compelling people to rely on him for survival -- the primary effect of the US-UK sanctions, as has been pointed out for years by the Westerners who know Iraq best, the administrators of the UN programs, Denis Halliday and Hans van Sponeck -- among others.

If there had been any interest in allowing Iraqis to determine their own fate, these considerations point the way. But there wasn't. Hence the call that their torturers must use violence to "liberate them." An intelligent Martian watching this would be bemused, to put it mildly.

At the time of the 1991 uprising there were many things that could have been done, had there been any interest in allowing Iraqis to run their own affairs. It would have been possible, for example, not to authorize Saddam to use military aircraft to crush the uprising. Or not to deny rebels access to captured Iraqi military equipment.

Inspectors were in the country constantly until 1998. If you review the details, you'll find that US-UK actions contributed materially to their withdrawal. They didn't improve the human rights situation, but they did carry out very extensive disarmament, to the extent that Iraq is now one of the weakest states in the region. Otherwise it's unlikely the Bush administration would have attacked.

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3297 posts, Jul 2000

posted 04-02-2003 02:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Middle East - AP

Army Fights Republican Guard in Karbala
4 minutes ago

By CHRIS TOMLINSON, Associated Press Writer

NEAR KARBALA, Iraq - U.S. soldiers pushing toward Baghdad advanced through a gap west of Karbala on Wednesday after a night-long bombardment of the strategic city and the first major ground battle against Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s hardcore Republican Guard.

The Army's 3rd Infantry Division launched a heavy attack on towns and positions north of Karbala, where 2,000 paramilitary members of the Saddam Fedayeen and the Baath Party were believed to be hunkered down. The attacks began around midnight Tuesday.

At least 20 Iraqi were killed and an unknown number of fighters were taken prisoner, field reports said. No U.S. casualties were reported.

Karbala is a Shiite Muslim holy city about 50 miles from the Iraqi capital.

Lt. Col. Scott Rutter, commander of the 2nd Battalion, 7th Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade, said Iraqi troops concentrated their attacks on his battalion, allowing the rest of the brigade to pass through the Karbala gap unscathed.

The gap is a chokepoint between a lake to the west and the city of Karbala to the east. The gap opens onto a plain.

Farther to the east, Marines seized an important bridge over the Tigris River near the city of Kut amid fighting with the Baghdad Division of the Republican Guard, according to a Pentagon (news - web sites) official who spoke on condition of anonymity. The bridge allowed thousands of Marines from the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force to cross the river in their push toward Baghdad from the southeast.

Around Karbala, Iraqi defenders fired anti-aircraft guns into the sky most of the night, as artillery pounded suspected military positions in the ancient town. U.S. B-52 bombers circled Karbala throughout the night, carpet-bombing some areas while U.S. Air Force and Navy fighters went after small targets.

Late Tuesday, the Army fought parts of the guard's Medina Division after Tomahawk cruise missiles and airstrikes pounded division positions near Karbala.

Pentagon officials have said the Republican Guard must be eliminated before ground troops move on Baghdad. For more than a week, coalition airstrikes and artillery barrages have pounded Republican Guard units to the south, west and north of the capital.

The Pentagon's top general, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Richard Myers, said the Medina Division's fighting strength had been reduced by more than half. Military officials said the Republican Guard's Baghdad division, centered around the city of Kut to the southeast, also has been similarly worn down.

Myers said elements of two of Iraq (news - web sites)'s northernmost Republican Guard divisions — the Adnan and Nebuchadnezzar — had moved south toward Baghdad, apparently to reinforce units coming under punishing attack from above.

The Karbala fighting took place on one of three south-north routes that coalition forces are using to approach Baghdad, the ultimate prize.

About 100 miles to the southeast, across the fabled Euphrates River, U.S. Marines near the town of Dinwaniyah killed at least 80 Iraqi soldiers and took more than 40 prisoners in an eight-hour battle.

The 3rd Battalion, 4th Regiment came under artillery and mortar fire, and hundreds of Iraqi fighters with rocket-propelled grenades and rifles were said to be inside the town. Marine 155 mm howitzers miles away fired on Iraqi mortar positions, tanks and bunkers.

The Marines killed 80-90 Iraqi fighters, said Lt. Col. B.P. McCoy, and took 44 POWs — among them Republican Guard officers, recognizable by their red boots. They bulldozed a pit and put barbed wire around it for holding prisoners. Other POWs were taken away in trucks.

Cpl. Patrick Irish of Grants Pass, Ore., described the Iraqi fighters as "shooting from buildings, from dugout positions, from holes, from everything. They would jump out to shoot. They were behind buses — you name it, they were there."

Other Iraqi fighters turned and ran.

"It looks like a lot of them saw what was coming and changed their mind," said Sgt. James Mares of Chalfont, Pa. "It's just a matter of putting down enough fire until they ran. They died, or decided to give up."

Iraq's defense minister, Sultan Hashem Ahmed, claimed aerial bombardment of Republican Guard positions south of Baghdad had caused minimal damage, because of "good fortifications."

"The Republican Guard Corps are in their best morale and will inflict damage on the enemy that it had never seen before," he said.

He added that coalition forces had failed to capture any towns, because "they never found anyone to cooperate with them."

Iraqi officials also claimed Tuesday that U.S. Apache helicopters had attacked a neighborhood in the central city of Hillah, killing 33 people and injuring more than 300. The U.S. Central Command said it was investigating — but that no Apaches could have been involved.

In southern Iraq, Marines of the 15th Expeditionary Unit's Echo Company captured a police compound Tuesday evening on the outskirts of Nasiriyah, part of an intense push to gain final control of the key southern city.

The Marines seized the huge, walled compound without any resistance: The site had been abandoned — a sign that Iraq's stiff resistance in the area may be faltering.

Associated Press reporter Doug Mellgren reported that a column of amphibious assault vehicles slowly rolled up to the compound under a dark, moonless sky dotted with stars. The calm was interrupted when the Marines opened fire on the guard towers that ring the compound. Illumination rounds flashed in the sky to make the targets more visible.

It was the first time some of the troops had fired their weapons.

"Firing at Iraq? It was nice," said Sgt. Robert Renfrow, 28, of Lake Stevens, Wash., who manned a .50-caliber machine gun mounted on an amphibious assault vehicle. Artillery fire pounded the compound, and small grenades were used to knock down the wall that protected it.

Wearing night vision goggles, Marines went from building to building, checking windows and doors to ferret out any hostile Iraqi forces. Two Iraqis were detained.

Also in the south, British troops guarding a key bridge outside of Basra exchanged fire with forces inside the city. Dressed in full combat gear, British forces responded to two mortar attacks, one in the morning and another in the afternoon.

Hundreds of civilians continued to stream out of the city with pickup trucks and automobiles full of personal belongings, food and even livestock. But the exodus had slowed from previous days.

For the first time during the war, a Patriot missile destroyed an Iraqi ballistic missile launched against U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, the U.S. military announced. It wasn't known what type of munitions the Iraqi missile was carrying.

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3907 posts, Sep 2002

posted 04-02-2003 03:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote


by VOX

Bush is a fascist

The chilling reality of our time is that our biggest enemies are within.

CNN is one such enemy.

The New World Order crusaders know that it is better to control people and nations with the scientific application of fear and lies rather than the more unpredictable and expensive methodology of bullets and bombs.

So forty years ago, the CIA’s, “OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD,” went into full swing. The goal of the program was simply to control all mechanisms of opinion - the print news, the public opinion polls and the television news media. Their thinking was, if you control what people think, you’ve won the war before it has even begun.

And they have been frighteningly successful at achieving their goal - Since the 1950’s all major news and polling organizations have, to one degree or another, been absorbed into the sphere of control of the intelligence agencies. Now, the hard truth, which is simply too fantastic for most people to believe much less even comprehend in the first place is that the major news media is in actuality, mind controlling, opinion forming, population control mechanisms, and little else.

CNN is such a mind control machine.

CNN Being wholly a government propaganda machine, an organ of the CIA, and indeed as claimed by many in the right as well as left, extraordinarily influenced to the point of near subservience to a Zionist political agenda (more so than any discernible American agenda),

CNN is in charge of faking out the American people and tricking us into thinking there is support for the government, Bush and the war. CNN, FOX NEWS and the other government propaganda channels are clear warnings of what these New World Order types have in store for us - lies, war, death, slick 3D graphics, fraudulent polls, fraudulent elections, ominous theme music and dumb newsreaders.

CNN - the masters of the televisual lie.

And so now, the reptilian newsreaders with expensive hairdos and tanning cream at CIA-CNN issue the latest fraudulent poll - 70% of the people support the president. This poll is a lie. It is a fake poll. The polling organizations, Time, Gallop, USA Today, CNN and all the rest of the CIA front companies posing as legitimate news organizations are all controlled by the CIA who themselves answer to the billionaire bankers and industrialists. The function of these fraudulent polls is to get people to conform with what they are tricked into believing that “everyone else” is conforming to. The polls are designed to create your attitudes, not reflect them. It’s called, “push polling,” and it works.

Not in a million years do 70% of the people support the president. People in the big cities have never met anyone who supports this jerk in the White House, yet there is this myth perpetrated by the media that there are these giant pockets of people (presumably hillbillies and rednecks) somewhere (presumably in the “heartland” of America) who are the ones who comprise this overwhelming 70% majority of Bush supporters. But when you look at the map, there just isn’t that many people in the, “hillbilly belt,” to comprise this mythical 70%. And so what does that mean? It means folks that you’re being lied to on a scale you never even imagined possible. That is the biggest scam and biggest secret of today - That there could be such an all encompassing hoax, pulled off right before our eyes - is real. But it is.

The American media is so fraudulent - the communist Chinese or Soviets never dreamed of forcing such preposterous lies down the throats of their people. No Soviet ministry of propaganda ever had the vast resources that the new lie masters have. The Red Chinese never had the prowess to so completely obliterate the truth in real time and retransmit it as utter lies to such a well conditioned and eagerly awaiting obedient sheep-like television viewing audience.

Each reporter knows full well the extent of truth that CNN senior editors will accept (very little) and so they don’t even cross that line into the realm of truth in the first place. They wouldn’t risk submiting a balanced and objective news story because by doing so their career would be finished. Each reporter knows full well, the tight, rigid parameters with which he is permitted to report the, “objective truth.” Each reporter knows that TV news is a game of lies - pure lies.

And the lies work! You really can control the vast majority of American “opinion” with massive transmission towers and cable systems transmitting 24 hour a day lies. That’s how it’s done. If the lie is transmitted over and over and over again, and if the application of fear is constant and conducted with the utmost of scientific precision - people can be transformed into sheep and herded into a corral of fear where they become well behaved, obedient sheep.

So turn off your TV news and forget about the major polls.

Get out in the streets and take them back. Confront these reptiles and sheep among us who are ruining this planet. And attack them.

It’s time to hit the streets and create some ruckus.

There needs to be a massive convergence of protesters at CNN headquarters in Atlanta. CNN will of course barely mention the protest, but their ambitious fellow liars in the other lie machines across the news industry would race to cover such a protest. Even though these other lie machines themselves are CIA controlled just like CNN they will still air the protest - demonstrating that in fact these LieNews organizations are equal parts CIA control, government propaganda, and ratings hungry back stabbing reptiles seething to make a profit for themselves, eager to stab their own kind in the back as long as they could gain one more square inch for their little corner of the big lie.

It is the responsibility of every young person and every seeker of truth and freedom and everyone who wishes for a better world for themselves and families to rise up and fight this REAL ENEMY WITHIN. The lie transmitters must be jammed and there are ways to do this. Jam CNN everywhere and anywhere with every method possible. Confront and disrupt anyway possible all CNN reporters, news trucks, satellite dishes or office buildings.

Steer the discourse towards topics never before even heard of.. New memes need to start surfacing in the worlds press and in the state houses of the worlds governments.
Shift the paradigm of rhetoric. Try a few of these memes on for size. A few headlines we need to start seeing:
“Foreign government seizes the assets of CNN and expels it’s journalists”
“Citizens urge their government to ban all CNN operations within their borders.”

Cut them off at the neck. Here’s a good rhetorical question to plant in foreign forums throughout the world:

“Since CNN is a CIA “front company” shouldn’t we urge our leaders to include a manditory warning label on all CNN/CIA newscasts warning us that CNN is a US government propaganda channel?”
What happened to our truth in advertizing laws?
“Europe jams all US government propaganda channels.”
“Boycotts organized against all advertisers on CNN.”
“Protesters disrupt, for the 20th day in a row, all activities of CNN and it’s advertisers.”
You get the idea.
All free nations or defenders of liberty must make efforts to knock out the capabilities which allow CNN and others like it to propagate the US government lies. Governments need to immediately mount massive public awareness programs warning their people that what they are really up against is nothing more than a massive lie machine and that if the world simply unites against it, and exposes it for what it is, they can knock out these machines of fraud and death quickly. The world must unite to cut them off where they breath. Boycott all advertisers on CNN. Protest and interfere with all activities of CNN and it’s advertisers. Deface their advertisements. And spit on every element of that machine of lies and death. Before they kill you all.

Since news is vital to our mechanisms of consent we need to draft laws assuring that our news companies have not been infiltrated or operated by the CIA. Laws must be enforced requiring an open and auditable mechanism of oversight for all major public opinion machines. (Gallop organization, Neilson ratings group, CNN, Fox and the other machines of lies.) The American attitude and psyche needs legal enforcement of the laws already in place to protect citizens from manipulation by the scientists of deception, whether from intelligence agencies who master such psychological operations or political parties who have adopted the techniques gained from these shadowy agencies to influence or steal elections.

The lie is the enemy.

And no news organization anywhere on earth represents this lie more fully and completely than CNN.
It is the responsibility of individuals to learn the nature of this struggle and organize to stop these fraudulent groups from spreading their terror to the peaceful nations of the earth.

And so it has come down to this: Americans are tricked, by the news media’s lies and fear, into doing the dirty work of oppressing the rest of the world using American bullets and bombs.

But soon after the ruling elite has finished using these deceived American worker ants and foot soldiers for their crusade of plunder they will turn the guns on these same worker ants and foot soldiers because there will come a day when the scientific application of lies and fear will no longer be sufficient to quell the unrest of these sheep and ants. The lie alone will no longer serve it’s function of suppression and will have to be supplemented with the next level, bullets.

When these New World Order murderers have exhausted the usefulness of the American sheep, American worker ants and American soldiers and there’s no more treasure to steal from abroad, when such a time arises that the sheep have nothing left to steal from others and nothing left themselves that is worthy of stealing, then and only then will these ignorant sheep, who supposedly support this crusade, see the fate that awaits them. Then and only then will the sheep see what these New World Order criminals have in store for them. Only then will they see the danger. Only then will the sheep decide that maybe it’s a good time to get off their knees. But by then it will be too late to rise up. For by then the sheep will fully fit within the vastly expanded definition of what a terrorist is. The definition of the word, terrorist by then will include any sheep who decides he wants a better life. It will be the twilight of the sheep - for the elites will find the few remaining thugs, reptiles, and pigs among us who are still ready, willing, eager and able, and pay them to turn the guns on the sheep, and slaughter the lot of them..

Pleasant Dreams


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One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3297 posts, Jul 2000

posted 04-02-2003 03:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
clear perspective...

Patrick J. Buchahan

Bush Doctrine, R.I.P.?

Posted: April 2, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2003 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

Militarily, this war on Iraq continues to go as well as any war in American history. Within the first three days, U.S. Marines and the 3rd Infantry had raced across the Iraqi desert to within 50 miles of Baghdad. The southern oil fields had been captured. Within a week, Umm Qasr, Iraq's window on the Gulf, and Basra, her second city, had been cut off. Special Forces had seized the airfields in the west. Two missiles had hit Kuwait, but with almost no casualties. Half a dozen others had been shot down by Patriots.

In the second week, U.S. airborne troops dropped into the north and secured a vital airfield above Mosul and began to move south with the Kurds toward the oil fields.

At this writing, not one U.S. combat plane – be it a Stealth B-2 bomber, B-1B, B-52, F-117, F-16, F-15, F-14 or A-10 – has been shot down. A few helicopters have been lost. When a drone was downed, basically a big model airplane, Baghdad celebrated.

U.S. dead are, at this writing, about three dozen. In the first battle of the Civil War at Bull Run, "The Confederates ... lost almost 2,000, but the Union army had lost more than 3,000; 387 were dead in gray, 481 in blue" – the rest were wounded or captured. So writes Shelby Foote.

Those armies would fight for four years with 400 men dying every day, either to preserve the Union or to break free of it. Those losses were sustained by a nation with a population one-eighth of what it is today.

Iraqi war dead have also been few, especially when one compares this to what we did to Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In those German and Japanese cities, scores of thousands of women and children were bombed and burned to death in minutes.

Yet, on the propaganda and political fronts, America is not winning. Sunday's talk shows were consumed with the question of who underestimated Iraqi resistance and who underestimated the forces that would be needed to break the Republican Guard and take Baghdad.

FDR got less criticism for writing off thousands of soldiers and Marines on Bataan and Corregidor than have President Bush, Secretary Rumsfeld and Gen. Tommy Franks for not having on hand enough troops to take Baghdad in 10 days.

The American people seem more mature than the talking heads about what will be needed to win. And if the United States can win this war in a month or six weeks – still possible given the steady attrition of the Republican Guard and the Baghdad regime under U.S. bombing, and the buildup of men and armor around Baghdad – what is being said now will not matter. Of greater concern is opinion in the Islamic world.

During Desert Storm, the "Arab Street" came out early, wildly denounced the United States and went home. "The Arab Street is a paper tiger" became the conventional wisdom. But demonstrations in Jordan, Egypt, Indonesia and Morocco have lately grown ominous. Anti-Americanism is rampant in the Gulf states. The Saudis have refused us permission to use their airspace for cruise-missile flights.

As the bombing of Baghdad grows more intense, and more bombs and missiles fall far from their targets and land on markets, malls, mosques, schools or hospitals, this is going to get worse. Nightly pictures on Al-Jazeera of Iraqi dead and wounded will even further inflame the Islamic world against the United States.

Can this go on for weeks, or months, without an explosion?

And what of the Bush Doctrine? If we had trouble finding allies when we were demanding that Saddam obey Security Council resolutions, where will we find them as that doctrine is applied to Iran and North Korea, which are under no U.N. resolutions?

If we need most of the U.S. Army and Marine Corps to defeat Iraq, where do we find the troops to invade Iran, which is three times as large and populous? Or North Korea, with its million-man army, hundreds of missiles and 13,000 artillery pieces on the DMZ? If we go marching to Pyongyang, there will be more than three dozen U.S. dead in the first two weeks.

Will Tony Blair be up for another war? Will our own elites and people be willing to go it alone, into one, two or three more wars on behalf of the Bush Doctrine, against the Axis of Evil, when what has been a successful war so far has so many wringing their hands?

Is America prepared to pay the price of empire? This has been the question from the beginning. Judging from the stunned reaction among our political and journalistic elites to the first resistance in a war that is going remarkably well, the answer is, "No."

[Edited 1 times, lastly by theseeker on 04-02-2003]

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Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3297 posts, Jul 2000

posted 04-02-2003 03:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
real people saying real things...

DEARBORN, Mich. — An initiative to recruit Iraqi exiles in the United States to help topple Saddam Hussein has been gaining support in Dearborn, Mich.

The Iraqi National Congress — a London-based umbrella group of various organizations opposing the Baghdad regime — is spearheading a project to assemble a pool of Iraqis to help coalition forces gain the trust of the country's people.

Emad Alkased of the Iraqi Youth Reunion — an educational group that wants to rebuild a post-Saddam Iraq — has been leading a recruiting drive in Dearborn, which has the largest ethnic Iraqi community of any U.S. city.

The drive is part of an all-out appeal to Iraqi-Americans who want to return to their homeland to help the U.S.-led coalition topple the dictatorship.

"I don't want American people to die for my country — I want me to be the first one," Alkased said. "I appreciate what American people are doing for my country, but I don't want them to spend their blood. I am ready to spend blood for my country."

Meetings are being held in Dearborn, where potential recruits fill out applications and give their address, date of birth, Social Security number and the name of the nearest airport.

Other Iraqi exiles are ready to shed their blood, too.

The Department of Defense has asked the Iraqi National Congress to find 250 volunteers who are willing to return to Iraq on 48 hours' notice.

U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz recently traveled to Dearborn to meet with hundreds of members of the city's Iraqi-American community.

"I heard one wrenching story after another about Saddam's systematic brutality," Wolfowitz said during a Friday press briefing at the State Department's Foreign Press Center.

The Pentagon has been training thousands of Saddam's opponents, including former Iraqi military officials, since last fall. President Bush gave the Pentagon $92 million for the program.

Dave Alwatan needs no convincing.

"As an American Iraqi, all our people here want to go in the front of the American military to fight Saddam's regime," he said.

Alwatan's nephew has brain damage and facial scars after Iraqi soldiers kicked him in the face when he was a year old in order to get information during the first Gulf War. Alwatan said the military was searching for him and his brother.

"I want to fight Saddam's regime, not our people," he said. "Saddam will never, ever go away without fighting. We know that. Saddam, he must go very soon."

Another Iraqi-American, Thea Alemari, said there's no doubt it's time for the dictator to go.

"You can't breathe. If you need to breathe, you have to have approval from government to say something," he said. "If you say something about the government, you be in jail or you'll be killed."

"We can speak to the people of Iraq, we have connection with the people of Iraq," Alemari added. "They feel not safe right now, but when we talk to them, I think we have large support inside Iraq."

Alemari said many Iraqis were afraid to speak out or aid coalition forces because they feared the current regime would survive this war, as it did the first Gulf War.

Exiles said they had not yet been briefed on when or where they might be needed in Iraq. Some of them are former Iraqi soldiers and want to head to the front lines.

At the very least, they said, they could be used as translators to help negotiate the surrender of Saddam's Fedayeen militia and Baath party members.

"It's my backyard. It is my city. It is my village. It is my people," said Casey Mahuba of the Iraqi Youth Union. "I know who is Fedayeen, who is Baath and who is honest people."

She said many people in Dearborn were willing to fight.

About 75 Iraqi-Americans who trained with U.S. forces at a military base in Hungary are now on the ground with coalition troops in Iraq. They're called the Free Iraqi Forces and primarily supporting humanitarian operations.

It was unclear whether the Dearborn exiles would be joining those forces. But they emphasized they were ready to do whatever was necessary to bring peace to Iraq.

"We will liberate our country. We will free Iraq no matter which it is going to cost us," Alkased said. "This is the last choice for us and this is what we are going to do."

Mahuba said fighting for her country would be worth her life.

"For me it is the freedom. It is my country. I want to sacrifice myself there," she said. "I want to die there if that is what it is going to cost. The price is the freedom."

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Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3297 posts, Jul 2000

posted 04-02-2003 03:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
this sounds more realistic...

Driver of van on forced
suicide mission?
Muslim cleric says checkpoint purposely ignored, causing civilian deaths

Posted: April 1, 2003
7:24 p.m. Eastern

© 2003

A Shiite Muslim cleric in Iraq claims the driver of the van at a U.S. checkpoint in which at least seven women and children were killed was forced to disobey the soldiers' orders to stop, thereby causing the civilian deaths, reports Fox News Channel.

Mohammed Barkir Al-Mohari said in a translated videotape that the incident outside Najaf in southern Iraq on Monday was purposely set up to give Saddam's regime grist for criticizing the United States.

After delivering repeated warnings to stop, U.S. soldiers fired on the van, which carried 13 people, according to the Pentagon, when the driver failed to stop as ordered. The military is investigating the incident.

Yesterday, another Iraqi was killed in a similar incident at a checkpoint near the south-central town of Shatra.

''In all cases in checkpoints and otherwise we maintain the right to self-defense,'' Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks told reporters while discussing the van incident. ''We've increased vigilance because of the tactics of Iraqi death squads.

''While we regret the loss of civilian lives, they remain unavoidable,'' he said.

''They tried to warn the vehicle to stop; it did not stop,'' Marine Gen. Peter Pace said on PBS. ''And it was unusual that that vehicle would be full of only women and that the driver was a woman. So we need to find out why it was that they were acting the way they did.''

The soldiers involved were from the Army's 3rd Infantry Division, which lost four soldiers Saturday at another checkpoint when an Iraqi soldier posing as a taxi driver detonated a car bomb in a suicide attack.

Al-Mohari also claims the suicide bomber that struck over the weekend was told if he didn't carry out his mission his family would be killed, and that Saddam's regime gave the man's family hush money.

Fox says Al-Mohari, whom the network describes as an "influential cleric," says families have been threatened with mass killings and even chemical attacks in recent years if they didn't follow through with orders from the Iraqi regime to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks.

"Those people, children and women, were put in the [van] by Saddam Hussein's forces," Al-Mohari said, "and their husbands and fathers were taken as hostages. And the driver was ordered to speed up at the checkpoint and not stop so that they would be shot at."

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Resisting the NWO

Northeast USA
3907 posts, Sep 2002

posted 04-02-2003 04:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

U.S. Killing of Iraqi Women, Children Enrages Arabs

Tue April 1, 2003 08:47 AM ET
By Sami Aboudi

CAIRO (Reuters) - The killing of seven women and children by U.S. troops in Iraq has enraged Arabs, already incensed by what they see as a Western war on Arabs and Muslims.

"The ugliest part of any war is this," said Sameh Nabil, a 25-year-old vendor selling books in central Cairo.

"Every day, the newspapers are publishing pictures of little Iraqi children wounded or dead. That makes me furious."

U.S. Central Command said U.S. troops fired at a van on Monday which failed to stop at a desert checkpoint, even after warning shots were fired, killing seven of the 13 women and children and injuring two others.

A Washington Post journalist traveling with the U.S. troops said a total of 10 people were killed and quoted the U.S. captain at the intersection as saying his forward platoon had failed to give the van ample notice it would be shelled.

"It was a deliberate act in cold blood to avenge September 11. I hope Bush, Blair and their families are pleased," said Hamza Abdulrahman, an Omani civil servant.

"The world should not accept any apology from this action and the coalition forces must put the murderers on trial," said an Omani Foreign Ministry official, who did not want to be identified.

The U.S. insists it does not target civilians in the war it launched on March 20 over allegations Iraq was hiding weapons of mass destruction. Baghdad denies having them.

The killings, part of a mounting civilian death toll in the U.S.-led war, has increased anger in the Arab world against the United States and Britain. Iraq says about 600 civilians have been killed so far.


Many said the checkpoint killings demonstrated the U.S.-led forces were not trying to liberate Iraq, but were trying to occupy it.

"They indicate that American soldiers are afraid and that they have clear orders to kill," said Hamed Abdu, 35, a Gaza taxi driver.

"The Americans are just acting like the Jews here -- they kill Palestinians and then look for excuses," he added, referring to Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian uprising for independence.

Ibrahim al-Farzai, owner of a Yemen grocery shop, said the civilian deaths at the checkpoint were "proof that Americans came to occupy us, and of course the occupier has no humanity and we have no choice except 'jihad."'

Arab newspapers have reflected the outrage felt by people on the street, splashing reports of civilian deaths across their pages.

"Invaders commit massacre in the al-Ameen area...26 martyred including 11 children," screamed a front-page headline of Akhbar al-Khaleej newspaper in Bahrain, home of the U.S. Fifth Fleet.

In Cairo, the semi-official al-Gomhuria wrote in a banner headline: "The invading forces commits three ugly massacres in Baghdad and Najaf." A picture of a wounded Iraqi girl was inset with one of an Iraqi man looking dazed in a hospital bed.

A Lebanese political science student said the U.S.-led forces would "lose the war politically" over such deaths.

"These incidents will become a big problem for the Americans because they cannot control the civilians, which means more of them will die," the student said.

Mohammed Mahmoud, a 45-year-old Egyptian company employee said the war had changed his mind about the United States.

"In the past, I used to think of America as the center of technology, education and freedom. I loved America. But now, I think it is a country of murderers."

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Chemtrail Information Agent

1245 posts, Oct 2000

posted 04-02-2003 08:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for David     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is always the innocents that suffer...

Liberated Iraqi children

[Edited 1 times, lastly by David on 04-02-2003]

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Resisting the NWO

Northeast USA
3907 posts, Sep 2002

posted 04-02-2003 08:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote



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Proud Veteran
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205 posts, Jan 2003

posted 04-02-2003 09:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Proud Veteran     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Brig. Gen. Vince Brooks:

"While we regret the loss of any civilian lives," he said, "at this point they remain unavoidable, as they have been throughout history."

It's to bad that children have died. They could have been the future leaders of Iraq, scientists or doctors who might have found the cure for cancer, who knows.
Given the situation the soldiers where in I know I would have reacted in the same manner. After the suicide bombing, I believe the troops have every right to protect themselves and I hope they do not back away from it.

Civilian deaths are going to be unavoidable, like Gen Brooks said.

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Proud Veteran
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205 posts, Jan 2003

posted 04-02-2003 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Proud Veteran     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Brig. Gen. Vince Brooks:

"While we regret the loss of any civilian lives," he said, "at this point they remain unavoidable, as they have been throughout history."

It's to bad that children have died. They could have been the future leaders of Iraq, scientists or doctors who might have found the cure for cancer, who knows.

Given the situation the soldiers where in I know I would have reacted in the same manner. After the suicide bombing, I believe the troops have every right to protect themselves and I hope they do not back away from it.

Civilian deaths are going to be unavoidable like Gen Brooks said.

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