posted 05-23-2002 08:44 PM               

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Karma is a law for sheep. We should not wonder that the shepherds advocate it. It is a law for the passive, for those who will not disturb the status quo, who will accept whatever evil is done as "natural" and inevitable. Karma is a law for slaves, for the vanquished.

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Sounds more like they are talking about Apathy.

posted 05-23-2002 08:58 PM            

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Originally posted by Lulu:
I took a cruise through the Bermuda Triangle years ago, and detected no anomalous feel to the atmosphere, however, that doesn't mean that there isn't something going on there.

I want to believe.

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Ah, My dear Lulu, I love that reply. You have defined, in those four short words the entire basis for belief in Chemtrails, crop circles, alien abductions, witchcraft, orgone energy, ghosts, UFOs, Phrenology, astrology, alchemy, necromancy, Martian canals, fortune telling, I Ching, iluminati, star chambers, faked moon landings, and all of the other pseudosciences and conspiracy theories.

"I want to believe."

Of course you do, how much more interesting life would be if these things were true! Never mind the facts, they are true because you want them to be true.

Even though most people have generally accepted that there is no evidence to support the Bermuda Triangle theory (BTW nice link thermit), and even though you yourself have traveled in the region and did not observe anything unusual you believe because you want to.

Mark

posted 05-24-2002 10:56 AM            

I for one would like your take on this. You want us to tell you, how about you tell us. And please, don't be as modest or shy as you have been, speak up.

posted 05-24-2002 01:20 PM            

No, I don’t believe that there is anything strange or unusual in that part of the ocean. There have been more plane lost without a trace over the continental US (land) than in the so called triangle. It is an ocean, a big stretch of ocean. Sure planes and ships disappear there all the time. Just like they do on oceans around the globe.

I am sorry if you think I am a troll (I suppose anyone who disagrees with you could be classified as such), but Lulu’s response to the question is a classic example of faith over facts. I actually respect the fact that she came right out and admitted it. She believes in it not because of a preponderance of evidence supporting her viewpoint, but rather because she wants to believe in it.

(edit) Which is OK as long as she admits it. It is those times that we (all of us) have trouble distinguishing what we believe in based on irrefutable proof, and what we believe in based on our secret wishes and desires that I have a problem with.

If you know the difference and can classify your beliefs between the two, then good for you. If you confuse the two, then you will have a problem. This applies to all of us. You can call me a debunker if you want, but I insist that you also recognize that the standards of proof are not the same for everyone.

My screen name was chosen by my 3 yo son. It is one of his favorite dinosaurs after the T-Rex. I have noticed a disturbing trend on these forums to launch vicious personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with the “party” line.

posted 05-24-2002 02:44 PM            

Believers, Infidels, Blind Chickens And Broken Clocks

By: Posey Gilbert 11/28/99.

There seems to be a trend that has been taring the UFO and Alien Abduction

Research community apart.
It always seems to come down to believe as I do or you are expelled from the chat room, news group, or the organization.
As a result of this we Experiencers are lo these many years later, still wandering an alien landscape in our bedrooms at night, and wondering what it's all about, and no closer to finding the answers we are all so deeply seeking, Believers, Skeptics and Infidels alike.
Although I have had Encounters with UFOs, Alien Entities, and Quantum Events as far back as I can remember, when asked if I believe in UFOs or Alien Abductions I will always answer with a resounding "No!"
I don't believe for, I can not believe, because to believe, you have to put your faith in an idea that you yourself have not experienced.
I am a True Experiencer so I know, and therefore can no longer believe!
Believe me, once you have a true encounter with these things, belief is the first thing that goes flying out of the window, shortly followed by you.
Your first thoughts are "Holy ( Fill in the expletive of your choice ) I dont believe this! "
From that moment on you're instantly transformed in to an Infidel, a
True Nonbeliever, for you no longer believe.... You know!
You are now and forever an Experiencer and so you "Know" that these things are real, and thus are no longer afforded the luxury of Believing these things are real.
The True Believers in this phenomena, are not those that have belief in the possibility of such things, but those that have Experienced them, and so know them to be true!
It seems to me the only people that I have ever had trouble with within my many years of encounters have been the Believers.
Both those that Believe in this Phenomena, and those that believe they don't believe in this phenomena better known as Skeptics.
Skeptics have to believe they do not believe for they will tell you in a heart beat "I can't prove a negative, in other words I can't prove that UFOs and Aliens don't exist."
So they have to "Believe", they believe, they don't exist, for they do not know if that is so.
These two groups of Believers are always the flies in the ointment.
Their fanatical Believing forces them to draw battle lines, where there should be lines of communication established.
It has been my experience and human history bares me out that it is always the Believers that end up banishing, banning, burning, blowing up, our tarring down, torturing, maiming, crucifying, an otherwise murdering those that do not believe as they do.
To Believers it is always a game of numbers to them in other words it seems the more that they get to believe as they do the "Righter" they think they are, and the "Wronger" the other Believer (Skeptic) are.
This is a ridiculous way to search for truths.
This process ends up blinding both factions to the truths seen by either.
That truth end up being destroyed, or covered up by the opposing faction. Or the real Experiencer ends up being killed by a fanatic of either one or both factions.
Once most of the world believed it was flat, but that did not make the world flat.
Once most believed the Earth was the centre of all things, and that did not make the Earth the centre of all things.
Once most of the world had never seen a gorilla, and there too that did not Non-exist gorillas.
You see in the end belief does nothing to the conditions that exist.
Yet here we are preparing to enter a new millennia with Believers still fighting over things they do not know but believe in.
The fact of it is all True Experiencers, do not care if they are believed or not, never have, and never will.
No matter what numbers all the Number Crunchers comes up with, pro or con it means nothing to the True Experiencer.
In the end, you see they realize it will not change their experiences to know, how many do believe, or how many believe they don't believe them.
They do not try to get anyone to believe, one way or the other, for it is not important what people believe about this subject, or anything else for that matter.
It is only because I have experienced these things first hand, that I know both sides are right in some things, while also acknowledging that both sides are also wrong in others.
I speak about my experiences with hopes to meet others that have had similar encounters.
So the taunts of Philip Klass on The Jackie Mason Show made no difference to me.
I shut him up with proof.
The idiotic snide remarks made to me by Richard Bey did not shake me.
Nor did the nonsensical claims of some of the other self proclaimed abductees on that same program.
On CNN News Talk Live the confused (babbelations) of Budd Hopkins, nor the crazy (ramblelations) of Dr. Jerry Lee, and unconvincing footage of John Fords' crashed Long Island UFO, did not shame me into silence either.
Why should it?
I know what I know, and what I know is that the truth of my experiences is not hinged on anybodys' beliefs.
What does matter is that I tell what I experienced as clearly and truthfully as I can.
Let those with ears to hear it, hear it, and those with eyes to see it, see it.
To eject any one from a discussion group because you do not like what they are saying in the end will silence those Experiencers among you that may wish to speak, but are too frightened to do so, for fear that what they have to say may likewise cause them to be ejected from the group.
That is how cults are born.
Remember, even a blind chicken finds a kernel of corn now and then, and even a broken clock is right two times a day.
The truth is, the truth is ugly, for it always has parts to it that you or someone else may not like to be known.
Still to silence any part of it because it runs contrary to your, or anyone elses belief, makes it a half truth, and as we all know half truths are whole lies.
So I say why should a Skeptic be ostracized for asking questions some one may find hard to answer?
If one feels a question or statement does not merit a response then be silent.
Such remarks will only matter to one that has not had one of these experiences, for they fear it will shift the balance in the Numbers Game they are playing.
They worry that people may start to believe what the skeptic says, and the scales of belief will then tilt in the skeptics favor...
Well so what if they do!
What will that change, other than other Believers beliefs?
If so, then they were never really sure about their beliefs anyway.
By the demanding of the expelling of a skeptic, it also gives rise to the appearance that the one demanding this expulsion, may not be firm in their own beliefs.
I have been in this battle for a long time and it has always been those that you would suppose you are fighting for, that are the same ones that will always put the knife into your back.
Nine times out of ten it will be done not by the Skeptic but a Believer.
One that has not had the experience, but believes in it with a fanaticism that verges on insanity.
Because they are Believers, they will believe anything, and so it was Believers that died in the Heavens Gate tragedy.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/7247/BelieverandInfidels.html

posted 05-24-2002 04:07 PM               

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You have defined, in those four short words the entire basis for belief in Chemtrails

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Actually no, your statement is BS Bonehead. I DO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE IN CHEMTRAILS...got it. I want to believe in the PARANORMAL, not CHEMTRAILS, but I do believe in chemtrails because the first time I witnessed one my stomach took a nose dive and a little voice said "something's not right here". I listen to that inner voice Bonehead.

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Never mind the facts

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how much more interesting life would be if these things were true!

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I want to believe beyond the NORMAL...I want to dream beyond the mundane, I want to soar with the eagles.

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I actually respect the fact that she came right out and admitted it.

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but Lulu’s response to the question is a classic example of faith over facts.

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