posted 09-01-2002 09:59 PM            

Has anyone here seen these also?

posted 09-01-2002 10:38 PM            

A few months later, a black helicopter buzzed one of my neighbors, circling the house a few times before it flew off in my direction. Again no markings were visible.

posted 09-01-2002 11:00 PM            

Sometimes many people confuse a Black Hawk equipped with the ESSS/HIRSS system for an "Apache" looking aircraft. The ESSS provides pylons mounted on the sides and can be used to carry external fuel tanks...this looks alot like the stub wings on an Apache carrying missiles. I've seen Air Force pilots look at a Black Hawk so-equipped and make the mistake of thinking it was an Apache...so if they could get confused, then you probably could too.

Here is a "slick" UH-60 Black Hawk without the ESSS system:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/uh-60l-dvic330.jpg

Here's a ESSS bird, with the large ferry tanks...note that they can carry 4, 2 or no tanks under the pylons, so what you see here may not look exactly like what you saw:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/9732/tanks.jpg

It's unlikely that you'd see a Cobra, since they were all retired last September (what a shame...great aircraft).

Another point to bring up...I used to have a helicopter page on the internet from back in the days that I flew UH-1 Hueys. Some guy stole a photo I took of some Louisiana Army National Guard UH-60s, and posted it on his Black Helicopter conspiracy website. I sent him an angry letter and told him either take it down, or put a correct caption that those aircraft were US Army aircraft.

posted 09-02-2002 12:07 AM            

Apaches aren't going to be conducting anti-drug missions...too expensive, and way too much overkill in capability. Nearly all of the counter-drug aircraft used by the Army Guard are OH-58 Kiowas.

"I also have to wonder what such aircraft are doing flying so low over residential 'civilian' areas?"

Helicopters fly low. That's how they operate in real operations, and that's how they practice in training. It's a common saying that a helicopter pilot gets a nose bleed if he flies higher than 1,000 feet. When I flew the Hueys, I rarely ever flew higher than 1,000 feet, and often cruised around 100-500 feet. And it's not illegal. FAR part 91 dictates minimum altitudes, and according to FAR 91.119 para. (d), it essentially states that helicopters are exempt from the minimum altitudes provided they are not operated in a manner hazardous to persons or property on the ground.

"Also, if they are national guard units then why would they not be visibly marked? I mean it just doesn't fit your theory simply because they are operated primarily on a domestic level."

It's not a theory, it's reality. I used to fly for the Louisiana Army National Guard (both the 1-244th AVN and the 812th Med Co.). All of our helicopters were painted dark green with the small black lettering, exept for the medevac helicopters which had the red cross painted on the doors.

Army Guard helicopters are NOT primarily used for domestic duty. While they often are used to help during disaster relief and transporting state officials, they are a fully integrated part of the whole US Army, and participate in Army deployments worldwide. The Louisiana Guard's 1-244th Aviation Battalion was deployed to Haiti during "Operation Restore Democracy", and to Honduras for the Hurricane Mitch relief operation. They also went to Belize to support the Guard engineer units building new schools in that country. Many Guard units have been deployed to Bosnia and Kosovo for the peacekeeping mission there. And the 812th Med Co. was sent to Saudi Arabia for the Gulf War, along with a bunch of other Army Guard units.

"Plus in war a smart warrior is not going to wait to verify markings. What's intuitive is what goes. If there is a possible threat that cannot be verified then the elimination of said threat can be justified. Hence if something isn't marked it's liable to get blown up from all sides"

The lack of markings is to help conceal the helicopter from view, NOT prevent identification. Helicopters in combat operate at the tree-top level or below. This makes spotting the helicopter difficult. Having large colorful markings adds contrast and makes it easier for someone to spot the helicopter to take aim.

And most modern militaries don't teach intuition to shoot down unidentified aircraft. Doing so will result in killing alot of your own troops.

"The only reason they would want to conceal the markings, domestically, is to prevent identification of such craft in accordance with operations. Just like the unmarked chem jets."

No. Having the aircraft painted with low-vis markings is good for combat zones. That being said, you don't want to delay deploying your forces while you repaint your helicopters. US military aircraft are painted and equipped to go to war at a moment's notice. Notice that all USAF cargo aircraft are painted flat grey, with low-vis markings as well. Same goes for all US fighter aircraft. But since helicopters don't fly high, they are painted dark green with low-vis markings.

posted 09-02-2002 12:23 AM            

Don't believe me, try a FOI act request:

I believe it was operation Trident, decades ago. Not related to missile technology or the UK based operation trident(not directly anyway).

It was basically an operation in which they could utilize electromagnetic waves on large crowds from hovering crafts. I have actually read declassified information that states that this device at one point existed and was operative.

devices

quote:

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acoustic bullets, blastwave projectors, UV lasers, powerful infra-sound weapons, microwave systems, isotropic radiators

---

affect

quote:

---

electric shock, muscle paralysis, strong physical bodily trauma, involuntary defecation, raised body temperature, temporary blindness

---

Origination

quote:

---

Alliant Tech, Minneapolis, Minnesota; Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, New Mexico; Armament Research Development and Engineering Center (ARDEC), New Jersey

---

posted 09-02-2002 12:40 AM            

When was the last time you involuntarily soiled your pants when one of these "black helicopters" flew past?

I think you're seeing a normal US Army helicopter. You could also perhaps be seeing a spec ops helicopter too, but they aren't all that uncommon either...MH-53s fly over here occassionally looking to get gas over at Maxwell.

posted 09-02-2002 12:58 AM            

One thing you are wrong about is the fact that military craft need to comply with NCC-879045. They are not required to. Also, the craft had no visible lights on which is significant as well as the FAA defying elevation over residential areas. Add the potential applications on top of that and one should at least consider the possibility. I haven't experienced any of the effects mentioned either, nor do I think that is what these choppers are doing necessarily. I just think we should consider what is actually possible. It could have very well been some type of training or evaluation flight on all occasions. I honestly don't know.

posted 09-02-2002 01:29 AM            

I don't suspect any fowl play against citizens of the United States on this issue.These "black" helicopters are multi-purpose but NOT used on us. The pilots who fly them have kids and a station wagon along with a mortgage. I'm sure they would defect from military service if they knew that these were to be used for sinister purposes on mothers, daughters and sons in our own country.

Delta Force sometimes does strange operations at night in black helicopters.

posted 09-03-2002 01:25 AM            

The helicopter with the package on its underside was very similar to this one.

The package was not mounted between the landing gear dead center under the door opening. I tried looking for pictures of a Flir mounted on this type of chopper but I think that it would be mounted closer to the nose. However, I am not ruling out that it was some sort of downward pointing surveillance equipment for the purpose of scanning of the ground for pot plants.

Now that I think about it, though it might have been a coincidence, I did send one of colleages a letter concerning a possible magnetic anomaly located in the park that my research team had thought they found a few days before the helicopter showed up. They were flying low and slow so they were definitely looking for something.

posted 09-03-2002 04:22 PM            

Looks like an X-ray with piece of shrapnel stuck in a spinal column.

Good one.