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  America: A 'free' people? (Page 1)

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Topic:   America: A 'free' people?

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5475 posts, Sep 2002

posted 05-14-2003 09:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Habits and Attitudes of Free People

America is a “free country”, the “freest country in the world.” At least, that is what is almost universally accepted here simply due to the fact that it is repeated over and over again. Or is it?

by Kyle Standerfer
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3344.htm


05/12/03: (Strike The Root) I shall examine the evidence a little closer, based on what I have concluded to be criteria for what constitutes free people. I have come to the conclusion that the idea of freedom is like a seed being planted on a particular type of soil. The people inhabiting a particular area represent the soil. And, of course, whether or not that seed of freedom turns into a thriving redwood known as “enduring freedom” (not to be confused with the name the Bush Administration gave to their invasion of Afghanistan) depends on the type of soil into which that seed is planted.

Whether one is an anarcho-capitalist, anarcho-socialist, syndicalist, agorist, Georgist, or even a libertarian minarchist/constitutionalist, the survival of freedom, much less the flourishing of it, requires a set of habits and attitudes in the people themselves. It is not mandatory that every last inhabitant hold these attitudes and practice these habits, but I would advise that these attitudes and habits be predominant.

I have come up with three habits/attitudes that a particular population must predominantly hold to in order for freedom to last. By no means is this an exhaustive list. Readers may come up with other habits and attitudes that are essential to freedom’s survival. I will describe these characteristics and assess whether or not they hold sway in this country.

1. Free people understand the difference between being free and being unfree.

It is not mandatory for a free person to be well-versed in Rand, Rothbard or Von Mises -- although this certainly cannot hurt. What is more important is that people have a rudimentary, street-wise ability to make the distinction between freedom and servility.

James Bovard is no anarchist. Nonetheless he understands the difference between freedom and servitude. In Freedom in Chains: the Rise of the State and the Demise of the Citizen, he provided this valuable insight:

"A free society minimizes the number of bows and curtsies that a person must perform in daily life . . . . A free society has no legal caste system -- no officialdom with its pretexts to bring everyone else to their knees. Liberty means a social system in which people live as they please, restrained by their duty to respect the equal freedom of others. Freedom encourages the maximum number of people to attempt to find a better way to do something, a better way to live, a better way to produce, a better way to build, a better way to thrive . . . . The value of liberty lies in the value of not shackling people who could otherwise raise themselves, of not locking people in a box." (pages 242-243)

American diagnosis: A lot of people here believe they are free as long as they have the “right to vote,” or as long as there is a written Constitution, or simply because the United States government has yet to use lethal violence on a large portion of the population who happened to fall out of favor with the ruling elite. Or maybe it is possible that they have yet to experience a severe disruption of their lives and livelihoods at the hands of overzealous government bureaucrats and lawyers.

But they do not consider the fact that every paycheck period the state gets the first cut. It does not bother them that the state imposes one-size-fits-all regulations for people to be allowed to enter certain professions. They do not think twice about the fact that they must annually pay a fee to the state for the “privilege” of being able to conveniently get from point A to point B. Many of them never question the legitimacy of being told what they can and cannot put into their bodies -- even as fully functional adults.

I could go on and on, but there are other pertinent points to make.

2. Free people take the responsibility to jealously defend their freedom and their neighbors’ freedom from transgression.

Bank tellers, by becoming intimately familiar with what a “real” $100 bill looks like, can spot a “counterfeit” bill easily. By the same token, free people can spot attempts to transgress freedom from a mile away.

Jealously defending freedom includes, but is not limited to, keeping and bearing arms for defense of one’s self, property, loved ones and neighbors from aggressors, be they everyday murderers and thieves or wannabe rulers. As important as defensive arms are, it is equally important that people train their own minds to not become gullible to political snake-oil salesmen. Free people know attempts to aggress against freedom when they see them.

American diagnosis: I find this characteristic, among the three, to be the most lacking in Americans of today. How many times do the masses get swayed by demagogues who promise them the most material benefits, who promise to protect them from the bogeyman du jour, who promise to make their lives safer, healthier, and more fulfilling (sic) if they would just be willing to trust those in charge and sacrifice what remains of their liberty for the “common good”? How many of them see someone else get their houses ransacked, their kids taken away, their property seized, or their lives ended by the “authorities” and just uncritically accept the state’s version of events?

3. Free people abide by the ethic of “live and let live.”

More specifically, free people respect other people’s boundaries and property interests. They try as much as possible to resolve disagreements peacefully. THEY MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS!! They do not try to dictate the criteria on which people can associate or disassociate (that means you, Martha Burke).

Readers may disagree with me on this point, but I also believe that free people for the most part don’t try to find ideological or political statements in every activity people engage in or everything people choose to consume.

Lee McCracken had a very good point in his article “The Killjoy Political Boycott":

" Look, I’m not denying anyone’s right to boycott any product or artist that offends their sensibilities. In a free market everyone makes the economic choices that best suit their preferences. And each person’s conscience may dictate that he or she avoids certain products. But the insistence that every purchase, every act, every thought reflect some political position saps much of the joy from life. One of the great conservative insights, which seems to have been lost by many who sail under that flag, is that there’s much more to life than politics. Art, culture, religion, commerce and family are the stuff that real life is made of. These are the things that provide us with the most lasting satisfaction. It is the Left that has historically tried to politicize every aspect of existence (“the personal is the political,” remember?)."

American diagnosis: Granted, most people do not loot places of business, vandalize others’ property, shoplift from supermarkets, or shoot people in cold blood. Most people don’t engage in witch hunts to try to stamp out people who live in ways that offend them.

BUT . . . look at much of the conversation about the Iraq invasion that just took place. A lot of people who supported the invasion didn’t try, with calm, reasoned, measured and dispassionate arguments, to persuade those who disagreed with them that the invasion was justified. They found it easier to simply pillory their anti-war counterparts as “unpatriotic,” “Saddam supporter” or other epithets.

Lenin didn’t just execute his political enemies. He stated that first (to paraphrase) that “we must write and speak in such a way that engenders hatred, contempt and scorn amongst the masses towards those who disagree with us.” To this day, no contemporary American politician would have a long career after saying such a thing openly, but, it can be demonstrated that this method is used many times over by the ruling elite.

Again, I believe the three habits/attitudes described above are the most critical for freedom to take root and to blossom. I welcome feedback from readers pointing out other important habits and attitudes I might have overlooked.

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Hornblower
Senior Member


central europe
91 posts, Apr 2003

posted 05-14-2003 10:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hornblower     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I was a kid, I hitchhiked/bussed all over the USA and Canada for 4 months. Everyone I met was cool and it was a real eye-opener in terms of personal freedom compared to the European standard.

Today, I wouldn't put foot in your country even if you paid me.

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ChemCaptain
Senior Member


United States
495 posts, Apr 2003

posted 05-14-2003 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ChemCaptain     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's a shame we've earned such a poor reputation with you Hornblower, I think it'd be a great experiance if you did what you did then, now, it's the only way you'll get passed the incorrect percetions of what it'd really like here. Except.. I wouldn't Hitchhike...

Everyday I wonder what people like Mech are talking about, I'm not sure they even know.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by ChemCaptain on 05-14-2003]

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Fastwalker
Senior Member


832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 05-14-2003 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastwalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

quote:
Today, I wouldn't put foot in your country even if you paid me.

It's a shame more Europeans don't feel this way (especially the French). Same goes to all foreigners especially our illegal friends to the south and those practicing Islamic fascism . I hope they all share your sentiment and just get the hell out of my country….go home and stop draining from the economy.

Now if we can only convince leaches like Mech to love it or leave it, as well....I was hoping he and Barbera Streisand would’ve shipped out long ago, with the rest of the liberal/socialist America hating idiots. Have a nice day...

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ChemCaptain
Senior Member


United States
495 posts, Apr 2003

posted 05-14-2003 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ChemCaptain     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While I don't usually agree with the 'Love it or Leave it' policy FW, I think a special case should be made for Mech. He can go to a nice, far away country, with no evil government types, and an unbiased media.

Hah.. Goodluck...

[Edited 1 times, lastly by ChemCaptain on 05-14-2003]

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5475 posts, Sep 2002

posted 05-14-2003 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hah! Yeah right. I'm not going ANYWHERE.

It's the globalists and the people who work for them that need to "get the hell out" of America...

THEY are the ones ruining this country...not me.

Hornblower is right. America is not what it used to be.

THAT is the REAL shame.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by Mech on 02-24-2004]

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ChemCaptain
Senior Member


United States
495 posts, Apr 2003

posted 05-14-2003 03:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ChemCaptain     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just want to know "what it used to be", and when this was.

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5475 posts, Sep 2002

posted 05-14-2003 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A country that ABIDED by Constitutional law, prepetuated an honest government that SERVED THE PEOPLE, NOT RULED THEM, a country whose leaders and corporations WERE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE PEOPLE. A country that had a future.

That WAS America.

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theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000

posted 05-14-2003 04:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm wonderin' when this actually existed mech ?

during your lifetime ?

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5475 posts, Sep 2002

posted 05-14-2003 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
REAL patriots ask questions.

Not blindly follow the pied piper off the cliff.

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theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000

posted 05-14-2003 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
answer the questions...

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5475 posts, Sep 2002

posted 05-14-2003 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unfortunately long before I was born if that is the "question" you are asking.

The creation of "the federal reserve" and the "irs" is when things really started to go wrong.

The NWO plan was many years in the making.


Over the past 30 years it has grown by leaps and bounds.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 05-14-2003]

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theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000

posted 05-14-2003 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
so how do you know it was better ?

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5475 posts, Sep 2002

posted 05-14-2003 04:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well when I see this country going down the toilet (like Rome) it gives me a good indication that things aren't right.

If you say things are getting better you are just full of $#!+.

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theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000

posted 05-14-2003 04:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
it is getting better...you are blinded by the cut and paste...

I'm afraid you've bought and eaten the whole alex jones enchilada with voxfux sauce...

you ever ask yourself what these...ahem...people have to gain by their rhetoric ?

and why use rome as an example ?

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5475 posts, Sep 2002

posted 05-14-2003 04:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't know..VoX has a great news website and Alex Jones makes great documentraies that the media whores like FOX (Who make millions) wouldn't have the balls to put out. I'm glad he makes a living off of them...I'm glad his listernership has grown fivefold and more.

I know what the GLOBALISTS stand to gain...

TOTAL...GLOBAL...CONTROL over every living man woman and child on earth.

Rome is a great example of what is happing to America.

Nero torched Rome to blame it on his political enemies just like BU$h and the CIA "torched" the towers to CREATE an enemy.

Or in their own words.."A new Pearl harbor" (PNAC)

Food for war.

TOTAL control in the hands of a tiny few.

That is their satanic vision of how things should be.

YES..that is their plan.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 05-14-2003]

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theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000

posted 05-14-2003 05:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
fox does not have the balls to put out stuff like jones' because of journalistic integrity...*it has to be true*

interesting you bring religion into the mix...so you alex jones voxfux mark sky and your *crusade* are going to make the book of revelation an incorrect prediction ?

WARNING SLIPPERY SLOPE MECH !

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5475 posts, Sep 2002

posted 05-14-2003 05:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No...that is WAYYYYYYYY out of my league.

It's a satanic, beast SYSTEM they(globalists/Illuminati) are setting up though.

Why reference just Jones/Vox?

They aren't the only ones who know about the New World Order.

George H W Bush openly called for a New World Order back on Sept 11th 1991.


Sure enough (COINCIDENTALLY?) On Sept.11th 2001...10 YEARS LATER...He got his wish...the beginnings of the final stages of the New World Order.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/bushsnNWO.mpa

[Edited 3 times, lastly by Mech on 05-15-2003]

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theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000

posted 05-14-2003 05:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know I seen the speech and heard the song...he did not mean NWO like what you mean...



[Edited 1 times, lastly by theseeker on 05-14-2003]

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Hornblower
Senior Member


central europe
91 posts, Apr 2003

posted 05-15-2003 02:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hornblower     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastwalker:

It's a shame more Europeans don't feel this way (especially the French). Same goes to all foreigners especially our illegal friends to the south and those practicing Islamic fascism . I hope they all share your sentiment and just get the hell out of my country….go home and stop draining from the economy.


The only one of you (who replied to this thread) who I consider valid is MECH. Why?
Because he thinks of the future and does not remain stuck in an illusory past.

In North America, one is free ... to be a conformist or an outcast.

Unless of course one is Wealthy, then you have lines of people waiting to worship you ...

The America that I visited many years ago was every boy's dream country - it had all the ingredients for a fine civilized society but something went wrong along the way and now it has become Garbage Ville. Europe is far better (now) so you Yanks stay where you are and don't go messing with us (or you'll regret it). If you want to do something for your own 'people', give Manhattan back to the Indians!

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Fastwalker
Senior Member


832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 05-15-2003 04:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastwalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't worry we don't need to go to Europe, there are plenty of commie A-holes (most of whom call themselves Democrats) trying to bring the failure of Europe here. In fact, we've got Diane Feinstein trying to take away the second amendment, so we can be like merry old England where only the criminals are armed and it's a crime to defend yourself. We've got Governor Gray out Dufus of California plotting to stick 17 billion in new taxes on Californians to destroy the sixth largest economy in the world (so much for doing business in California). We've got people on the energy board trying to raise gas taxes....because they just can't stick it to the American people enough, and would be more than happy to see gas prices at 4 bucks a gallon just like in your country. Yeah there are plenty of idiots and morons like yourself working their hardest to turn this country into a socialist cesspool....just like Europe…..because they hate America too. So don't worry, they don't need your help. There is one thing you can do though….

People must not have heard America is such a terrible place because suckers in every country seem to be killing themselves to get here....Spread the word that it's not the boy's dream you thought it was, will ya? It will be just fine with me if everyone stays the hell out....oh and take Mech, with you….he really is an annoyance and a cut and paste abomination….

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Hornblower
Senior Member


central europe
91 posts, Apr 2003

posted 05-15-2003 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hornblower     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:

People must not have heard America is such a terrible place because suckers in every country seem to be killing themselves to get here....


To join the suckers already there, right?

Don't tell me, you're a Republican! I admire your sense of fairplay and justice for all.

Give Texas back to the Mexicans!


[Edited 1 times, lastly by Hornblower on 05-15-2003]

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Fastwalker
Senior Member


832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 05-15-2003 10:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastwalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
1. That's right...we're all suckers here in America. You just go out and tell the world that news. Maybe they’ll stay away.

2. Thanks for admiring my sense of fair play and justice for all...

3. And as for giving Texas back to the Mexicans, what makes you assume Texas is mine to give? If Texas was mine, I'd be the first to tell Mexicans where they can go F themselves, and the borders would have tighter security than San Quentin. Anyway… Seems like we already won that place from Generalissimo Santa Anna...Remember the Alamo….Davy Crockett? We already fought that war. But hey, if the Mexican's want Texas back, they are welcome to fight for it, and judging by what just happened to Iraq, I wouldn't be placing bets on the Mexican army...(of course many who just did the fighting in Gulf War II were Mexicans trying to obtain their American citizenship who are far greater American patriots than most Americans ). That irony being noted, I think Mexican's have already devised a better method for taking back Texas...Vicente Fox just sends over the illegals to sap the Texas, Mexico, Arizona and California economies, and Americans are such big, stupid liberal weenies, that we let them and we keep handing out the wellfare checks, free education and medical benefits to the non-citizens. No other country on earth does this, but over here in America, we have been suckers who are letting liberals like you destroy this country. Hopefully we are doing something to tighten the borders though, and wise up to the danger of liberalism...because I think Bush might have a little problem giving Texas back to the Mexicans. What we really need to do is give Mexico back to Texas…and hey, while we’re at it, let’s give the Mayans, Incas and Aztecs a say…. Let’s kick the Spanish out! Yeah…that’s the ticket!



[Edited 3 times, lastly by Fastwalker on 05-15-2003]

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Hornblower
Senior Member


central europe
91 posts, Apr 2003

posted 05-15-2003 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hornblower     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't say that I remember the Alamo but I do remember watching the film of it with John Wayne. Great cowboys in Amerika.

quote:
...(of course many who just did the fighting in Gulf War II were Mexicans trying to obtain their American citizenship who are far greater American patriots than most Americans ).

So most Americans are not patriots? That makes sense.

quote:

No other country on earth does this, but over here in America, we have been suckers who are letting liberals like you destroy this country.

Yep, you're perfectly right. Lock them all up, I say. Make more prisons, get more barbed wire, set up miradors, train more guard dogs, increase security measures, weasel out those intruders and string 'em up for they are turning your country into a shithole. Got your gas mask yet?

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Fastwalker
Senior Member


832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 05-15-2003 12:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastwalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
So most Americans are not patriots? That makes sense.

I mis-spoke....Most Americans are patriotic. We have our exceptions...Most are found here on this board.

quote:
Yep, you're perfectly right. Lock them all up, I say. Make more prisons, get more barbed wire, set up miradors, train more guard dogs, increase security measures, weasel out those intruders and string 'em up for they are turning your country into a shithole. Got your gas mask yet?

People with attitudes like yours turn this country into a shithole. However, I have a better solution than locking them up. That takes tax payer dollars. I say round illegals up and kick them out. Then have a four year moratorium on legal immigration until we can fix or replace the INS and seal up the borders to keep leeches on society like you out.

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