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Topic: Contrails Over Washington DC (pics)

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Paranorman
New Member

Northern, VA
1 posts, May 2003

posted 05-23-2003 01:38 PM

Took these pics a few days ago at Reagan/Washington National Airport. Link: http://hometown.aol.com/facadefx/page5.html

Fastwalker
Senior Member

832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 05-23-2003 01:56 PM

I know it's tempting to want to believe in chemtrails, because we are all fascinated by the mysterious, but those are most probably, typical contrails. Consider what contrails look like.....here's a test that can be easily duplicated with some inexpensive software called Flight Explorer.

Find an airplane that you think is laying down a chemtrail. Go to the Flight Explorer screen on your computer which will show the aircraft type currently over head because it links to radar data. Odds are, it will be a typical commercial aircraft.

The thing that's difficult for a chemtrail believer to accept is the fact that normal contrails have all the characteristics of what the chemtrail theorists are calling chemtrails.

To deal with and acknowledge this fact, Clifford Carnicom (one of the big chemtrail promoters) even explained this on the Coast to Coast AM radio show by implying that commercial airliners themselves may be partaking in the spray campaign. Then he went onto an even more ludicrous theory suggesting that perhaps extraterrestrials were behind the whole thing. (Maybe airliners where just an alien illusion?)

Do we really want to go there yet...until we've eliminated ordinary explanation first?

After all, to determine if something is out of the ordinary or extraordinary, we must first eliminate the ordinary. You must first show that normal contrails don't have the same characteristics as so-called chemtrails, before you can give them that label. But simple tests will reveal the truth to you, that these trails do indeed have all the characteristics of normal contrails over a busy airport where there are often ground based navigational beacons as part of a hub of a busy airway corridor. You are going to see contrails in these places.

Thermit
Tech

Houston, TX
2621 posts, Jul 2000

posted 05-23-2003 02:05 PM

Yes, Flight Explorer is a great tool for Chemtrail research. Many of the trails seen in the sky are contrails, as proved by Flight Explorer. It's just those few jets that don't show up on the tool, and create unusually persistent trails compared to the other contrails at that time, location, and general altitude that are suspicious.

theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3297 posts, Jul 2000

posted 05-23-2003 03:09 PM

seen this on discovery wings last night...

maybe one of the *experienced pilots* could explain what is making the one trail...

the professor
exposing the mechanisms of evil

heartland USA
770 posts, Jan 2003

posted 05-23-2003 05:44 PM

bad engine

ChemCaptain
Senior Member

United States
495 posts, Apr 2003

posted 05-23-2003 07:15 PM

"It's just those few jets that don't show up on the tool, and create unusually persistent trails compared to the other contrails at that time, location, and general altitude that are suspicious."

The problem, Thermis, is most of the believers will take any trail they see and call it a chemtrail, not just the ones that don't show up on flight explorer. There is terrible inconsistancy in the community. W
hat abou the flights not on flight explorer? I don't know. I don't know what type of flights show up (any IFR?), or just commercial flights? Do military flights show up? There are a lot of non-commercial jets.

Fastwalker
Senior Member

832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 05-24-2003 12:10 AM

You kind of make my point beautifully for me Thermit. The point is, we are LOOKING for known aircraft. If we see something that looks like a chemtrail, but find out it’s an airliner, then we know that normal contrails are being mistaken for chemtrails. Take for example the following photos. These are all known airliners..(and one c-5 galaxy) all emitting KNOWN persistent contrails. Yet a chemtrail believer looking at these would undoubtedly call them chemtrails. Conclusion; There are no chemtrails…only contrails.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by Fastwalker on 05-24-2003]

Thermit
Tech

Houston, TX
2621 posts, Jul 2000

posted 05-24-2003 03:14 PM

ChemCaptain, FAA requires that military flights be blocked from FE data stream. Commercial, passenger and private generally all appear on FE, although some details may be blocked for private.

FastWalker, certainly it has happened that contrails have been labeled Chemtrails, however that logic doesn't disprove the existence of Chemtrails at all. I've done quite a bit of research on this, maybe more than anyone, and I could not disprove the existence of Chemtrails with the tools available to me. And just because, as ChemCaptain put it, there is "terrible inconsistancy in the community", doesn't change the facts. And, I happen to believe that those facts are that there has been a covert spraying operation. That said, all I can do is encourage people to educate themselves on the subject matter. I think that there is something to be learned whether you buy into Chemtrails or not. For Chemtrail believers that is refining their understanding of the issue, for skeptics that is that, even with the "confusion", there actually is a possibility that there is an element of truth to this.

theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3297 posts, Jul 2000

posted 05-25-2003 01:12 AM

that's true there's no way to prove that a program does not exist...proving one exists is equally futile...

professor on the "film" of the particular flight the "smoke" is coming from an area on the engine....

Fastwalker
Senior Member

832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 05-25-2003 05:37 AM

quote:
I've done quite a bit of research on this, maybe more than anyone, and I could not disprove the existence of Chemtrails with the tools available to me.

By the same token, this would imply that you cannot prove the EXISTENCE of chemtrails with the tools available to you either...I think you may have things a bit backwards here. You can't ASSUME chemtrails exist, and then try to disprove the assumption..(People can ASSUME anything they want). First you must prove chemtrails exist....Make sense?

quote:
And just because, as ChemCaptain put it, there is "terrible inconsistancy in the community", doesn't change the facts.

What facts? What facts have you proven about chemtrails that can't be explained by normal contrails? Are you familiar with Occam's razor and the phrase; "If it looks like a duck"? (see link)
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html

quote:
And, I happen to believe that those facts are that there has been a covert spraying operation.

And what facts are you basing this opinion upon? If there are no facts, then isn't what you are saying is that you have an unqualified belief?

quote:
That said, all I can do is encourage people to educate themselves on the subject matter.

If there are no definitive facts that chemtrails exist, then what subject matter would I be educating myself on? Should I educate myself on the unqualified beliefs of chemtrail believers, when all the "Facts" are consistent with normal contrails? Occam's razor, remember? Why should I assume chemtrails, when these white trails in the sky meet all the qualifications of normal contrails, when there is no evidence for chemtrails, when all speculations as to the purpose of chemtrails make absolutely no sense? The simplest explanation is usually the truth.

quote:
I think that there is something to be learned whether you buy into Chemtrails or not.

I think there is alot to be learned about the psychology of conspiracy theorists.....That's really MY personal interest in this whole thing.

quote:
For Chemtrail believers that is refining their understanding of the issue, for skeptics that is that, even with the "confusion", there actually is a possibility that there is an element of truth to this.

I think it's possible that spraying experiments have happened in the past. Surely our government has experimented to see the efficiency of applying a biological weapon from air. In fact, we know this has been done (and recently too). After 9/11 for example, we were very concerned that terrorists were trying to procure crop dusters to apply aerial biological weapons. We were concerned about the same thing with Saddam Hussein. It is logical then, we would try to simulate a low level attack, and I do think this has been done. A biological spray would be clear in appearance however (similar to when a crop duster sprays insecticide) and certainly most efficient at extremely low altitude (like 100 feet). It makes no sense that such a test would be done daily at the costs of literally BILLIONS, at 30,000 feet for absolutely NO proven or provable affect on human beings. The only fairly credible explanation would be weather modification, and since normal contrails modify the weather just fine all by themselves, costly daily spraying worldwide would be extremely illogical not to mention bankrupting for just about every economy in the world (in order to pay for such a huge mission).

So the odds are 99.99999999 % that you are seeing normal contrails.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by Fastwalker on 05-26-2003]

Fastwalker
Senior Member

832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 05-26-2003 02:42 PM

I have thrown down the gauntlet....Nobody wants to debate me?

Some of you chemtrail believers should at least try to face some of the logical questions here or otherwise all you have is a baseless belief. I'd come to your forum, but alas, I am not allowed. Dissent is not allowed in your forum. So if you're really honest with yourselves. If you want to face the hard questions. If you are really seeking truth, rather than blind belief, you are going to have to come here and face the debunkers.

Fastwalker
Senior Member

832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 06-24-2003 02:01 PM

Still waiting for Chemmies to confront the truth. (Notice how they conveniently let this thread slide). What? Everyone is afraid to put their arguments up against a harmless blue fuzzball?

the professor
exposing the mechanisms of evil

heartland USA
770 posts, Jan 2003

posted 06-25-2003 11:04 PM

You should've come up here to the coast of oregon last november and looked at the globs that many say are spider webs. I've seen this a few times and can tell you it's not from socalled ballooning spiders. Oakville Washington is on record for this as well, the sheriff stated the same, many people seriously ill, small animals dead and well you know the drill. They did however collect plenty of this stuff to be sampled and it came back with alot of the same biologicals as what has also been found by Carnicom. If you can find the unsolved mysteries show documents this as well. As for me I can tell a find silk web from a synthetic blob.

Fastwalker
Senior Member

832 posts, Mar 2003

posted 06-26-2003 02:34 PM

I admire how you can be a chemtrail believer and still keep your conservative convictions Professor. That's a sign of an independent thinker. You don’t feel like you have to go with the crowd on this board just because you share ONE particular belief.

Really though, the chemtrail issue doesn't stand the test of logic and proof on so many levels. Have you had those samples analyzed, as you mention? I heard Clifford Carnicom on Coast to Coast, and supposedly this guy has been doing all this testing. Well...it's been...what...four years now since this chemtrail issue first appeared? (I think it's been four)….and yet all we have are the Carny claims? Why hasn't someone found an definitive sample yet, with so much of the sample apparently available, such has having a field covered with this stuff ? You'd think they could get a ton of samples from an entire field (after all, if this is a chemical, then it's going to cover a huge area when it falls, not just one little patch. It should be very easy to get the samples needed and repeat). This way, they could rule out introduction of error and truly identify what composes the material.

Ah…but you have an answer to this;

quote:
They did however collect plenty of this stuff to be sampled and it came back with alot of the same biologicals as what has also been found by Carnicom

Aren't spider webs "biological"? Have they ruled out spider webs? Have they ruled out the possibility that the substances Carnicom encountered may occur in natural spider webs? What was the source of the sample? Was it near a factory smoke stacks, either agricultural or industrial plants that could have been the upwind culprit? Would a spider web found over freshly fertilized soil come up with some of the pathogens found? Have they ruled out the introduction of other materials…was the sample pure?
Where they a known synthetic material? If the material is proven to be synthetic, can we associate with a chemtrail or contrail at 30,000 feet?

See what I’m saying here Professor? I think we need to get a little more specific and scientific with our analysis before we can assume what you are seeing is some form of government sponsored aerial spraying. We truly haven’t even ruled out ballooning spiders.

the professor
exposing the mechanisms of evil

heartland USA
770 posts, Jan 2003

posted 06-26-2003 10:56 PM

Well this event occurred in 1994 and the sheriffs office and some citizens had the samples taken. Oakville Washington does not have any paper mills to my knowledge. The samples were gathered from what the sheriff stated huge globs, so big they had to pull over the squad to clear the windsheild. From what witnesses say was that these came from low flying C 130s not jets. As far as me collecting samples what for? It's not like I'm gonna change anything and this has only happened a few times it's rare and it wasn't from spiders in 38 degree temps in the winter.
As far as thinking long contrails are chemtrails well I havn't seen anything abnormal for months nor do I buy into every trail is a chemtrail thats just silly.
Don't be fooled into thinking that the military never uses test rats my father was one of them and is now 100% disabled and the V A is now paying the cost as well as
others.
shit happens and you move on.

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