posted 07-14-2003 11:13 AM            

"-- They have been victimized, and continue to obey like an abused wife, brainwashed and afraid to recoil. It’s a pitiful scenario, but stupid people get what they deserve I guess. Eating cheese, repeatedly from the same rat trap that snapped their necks numerous times before. They want so badly for you to believe and see what they see from the perspective of their twisted, delusional dream state .--"

Sad to say...in oh so many ways, much of American society suffers the same 2D way of thinking and living.

People are too busy pursuing that shiny new SUV or other worthless distracting trinkets to see the noose being tightened around their necks.

Very scary in fact.

posted 07-14-2003 01:00 PM            

Job Exports May Imperil U.S. Programmers
Sun Jul 13, 2:16 PM ET

By RACHEL KONRAD, AP Business Writer

SAN JOSE, Calif. - Peter Kerrigan encouraged friends to move to Silicon Valley throughout the 1980s and '90s, wooing them with tales of lucrative jobs in a burgeoning industry.

But he lost his network engineering job at a major telecommunications company in August 2001 and remains unemployed. Now 43, the veteran programmer is urging his 18-year-old nephew to stay in suburban Chicago and is discouraging him from pursuing degrees in computer science or engineering.

"I told him, 'Unless you're planning to do this as a path to technical sales, don't do it,'" said Kerrigan, who lives in Oakland. "He won't be able to have a career designing and building stuff because all those jobs have moved to India."

Like many unemployed programmers, Kerrigan blames the sour labor market on offshore outsourcing — the migration of tech jobs to relatively low-paid contractors or locally hired employees in India, China, Russia and other developing countries.

The hemorrhaging of tens of thousands of technology jobs in recent years to cheaper workers abroad is already a fact of life — as inevitable, U.S. executives say, as the 1980s migration of Rust Belt manufacturing jobs to Southeast Asia and Latin America.

But a new wave of technology outsourcing — involving tasks that involve greater skills — could be cutting to the industry's bone, threatening to prolong the three-year U.S. economic downturn.

Some who oppose the trend, which such industry stalwarts as Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Dell and Microsoft are embracing, believe it could even usher in the end of American domination in technology.

"We're giving countries like China and India the support they need to build up their technology industries, and the result could disadvantage us in the long run," said Phil Friedman, an electrical engineer and chief executive of New York-based Computer Generated Solutions, a 1,200-employee software company that targets the apparel industry.

"We outsourced electronics manufacturing. We're closing steel mills. Every week, 400,000 people file for new unemployment claims," said Friedman, a 54-year-old Ukrainian native who immigrated in 1976. "At the same time, we're shipping tech jobs offshore — it's a shortsighted approach and cheats the American work force."

Cost-conscious executives have been shifting lower-level tech jobs in data entry and systems support abroad to cheaper labor markets for more than a decade. But now they are exporting highly paid, highly skilled positions in software development — jobs that have been considered intrinsic to Silicon Valley and tech hubs such as Seattle; Boston; and Austin, Texas.

Critics say it's the equivalent of exporting not just the automobile industry's assembly line jobs — but the core engineering and car design jobs, too.

Roughly 27,000 technology jobs moved overseas in 2000, according to a November study by Forrester Research. It predicts that number will mushroom to 472,000 by 2015 if companies continue to farm out computer work at today's frenzied pace.

According to Forrester, companies in the United States and Europe will spend 28 percent of their information technology budgets on overseas work in the next two years.

Boeing, Dell and Motorola have opened software development centers in Russia. Intel employs 400 full-time Russian software research engineers and nearly 200 others in marketing and sales, wireless Internet access and modem projects.

Santa Clara-based Intel entered the Russian market with a small contract project three years ago. But within months, the world's largest chip maker hired all the programmers who write compiler software to optimize the microprocessors' performance, and opened the Russia Software Development Center in Nizhny Novgorod.

"We intend to invest in the fastest-growing markets, and those are India, Russia and China — that's the long-term plan," Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy said.

Microsoft is adding software development jobs at its India Development Center in Hyderabad, opened in 1999 to create versions of Windows for giant corporate computers. Bill Gates said late last year that the expansion was part of an estimated $400 million in corporate investments in the subcontinent.

On its corporate Web site, Microsoft lists dozens of Hyderabad openings, many requiring five years of experience, fluency in multiple computer languages, and college degrees in computer science — far from the hourly telemarketer jobs that financial services and insurance companies exported to the Philippines and elsewhere in the early '90s.

Some say sending those jobs abroad may cause American tech workers' wages to stagnate.

According to the nonpartisan Economic Policy Institute, non-inflation-adjusted wages for tech workers grew 1.7 percent between the fourth quarter of 2001 and the fourth quarter of 2002 — not enough to keep up with the period's inflation rate of 2.2 percent.

The average computer programmer in India costs $20 per hour in wages and benefits, compared to $65 per hour for an American with a comparable degree and experience, according to consulting firm Cap Gemini Ernst & Young.

But executives say outsourcing offers advantages beyond wage differences.

Jean-Marc Hauducoeur, a senior vice president at Cincinnati-based human resources consulting firm Convergys, said his 47,000-employee company will employ 6,000 customer service representatives and network engineers in India by year's end.

Convergys' average technical employee in India stays on the job for nearly three years — more than double the U.S. average, saving tens of thousands of dollars in recruitment and training per employee per year, he said.

"People in India are very ambitious and very well-educated, but they're also ready to invest in a company, and they have less of a tendency to move out of the company," Hauducoeur said.

Many U.S. corporate executives say they simply can't afford to overlook foreign computer workers — especially in India, which produces roughly 350,000 college engineering graduates annually.

Others say the genius of American enterprise is its leaders' knack for envisioning the next big thing — and workers' ability to redefine job roles and retrain. Americans pioneering developments in nanotechnology and biotech will have far more job security than simple programmers, they argue.

Bob Pryor, who heads the outsourcing practice of Cap Gemini Ernst & Young, said it's "naive" to think outsourcing software jobs could ruin America's tech dominance.

"The reality is that we live in a global economy and we compete against global players. We need to look at where we have strategic advantage — whether it's resources or skills," Pryor said. "It frees up people and dollars to do much more value-added strategic things for clients."

Marcus Courtney, a former contract worker for Microsoft and Adobe Systems and president of the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, said many tech workers understand and even endorse free trade and globalization.

They even enjoy living on the cutting edge — taking courses in advanced computer languages, getting experience in a variety of business disciplines, and endorsing a philosophy of continuous improvement, he said.

But many find it tough to reconcile their macro-economic outlook with their own unemployment.

"We need to move beyond the idea that individuals can simply cope and retrain," said Courtney, whose 275-member union is asking Congress to study and possibly regulate offshore outsourcing. "Workers need a voice over their economic future and a voice against the executives making these unilateral economic decisions."

SEE..THEY ARE ADMITTING IT.

"-The reality is that we live in a global economy and we compete against global players.-"

WE? The Executives or the Workers?

Welcome to the New World Order

posted 07-14-2003 01:05 PM            

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These artificial beings argue and debate while supporting their theories with fabricated facts and statistics. These simulated thoughts are produced by the right wing, propaganda monster machine that feeds them.

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Uhhh....nice accusation there KT. Now, can you give an actual example of what the hell you are talking about....or is your rhetoric baseless, without actual substance or fact? Give me an example of a "fabricated fact and or statistic" we right wing people use. And what the hell is a simulated thought? And what's this monster propaganda machine you are referring to? Do you have actual substance or fact to back up your commentary? Or is it fluff? Is it only intended as insulting rhetoric without a basis in reality? It's up to you to prove and back up your own statements.

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For them, the world they perceive is one shrouded with illusions and chicanery.

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See this is what I’m talking about…your penchant for obscurity. Give us an example of these illusions and chicanery that shroud our right wing perceptions…

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They have been victimized, and continue to obey like an abused wife, brainwashed and afraid to recoil.

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In what way have we right wing people been victimized? And whom are you accusing us of obeying?

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It’s a pitiful scenario, but stupid people get what they deserve i guess.

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Stupid people like yourself often make baseless comments that have little to do with reality. Prove for us that you are not a stupid person as you appear to be. Show that there is some truthful or factual basis for your commentary. If your were an honest person you would state specific examples of what you are talking about. I’ll give you a chance. State some specific examples. Give us some facts. Prove that your commentary has any basis in reality. If you can’t do that, then it is only logical to assume, that you are the stupid person you accuse others of being.

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Eating cheese, repeatedly from the same rat trap that snapped their necks numerous times before. They want so badly for you to believe and see what they see from the perspective of their twisted, delusional dream state .

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Uh….is this why you libs want to keep putting people in power who destroy this country with policies that have consistently been shown to not work for the last 40 years? Liberals are the saddest students of history I’ve ever seen….and the biggest delusional hypocrites….(as KT demonstrates for us here). Look to California to see a fine example of what happens when you put liberal Democrats in charge. And KT can’t see this reality? Who is the delusional one.

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You cannot win an argument with them, because they reside in a fake world where they exclusively make the rules.

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OR perhaps, you cannot win an argument with a person of the right wing persuasion because your points are completely rhetorical, shallow fluff that have no basis in fact or reality. Give an example of this “fake” world and why you think it is fake.

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This is the only place where they fit in and feel comfortable. Reasoning and logic take a backseat to blatant media manipulation.

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I believe I have demonstrated that you are the illogical person here. Prove me wrong. Back up your statements with logic, fact and reason….If you can’t do that, then we’ll have to assume my previous statement was true. You accuse others of possessing the exact inequities of which you possess yourself. You attribute your own inadequacies and faults to others where those inadequacies and faults do not apply.

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The zombies have lost their souls, minds and pride, it’s clearly over for them.

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Is anything you say not shrouded in vagaries? If so…I haven’t seen it. Nobody really knows what the hell your are talking about. Do you feel safe there in that place of obscurity with sanctimonious comments that sound nice but have no actual meaning?….Or do you want to come down to reality and state some specifics. It’s your choice…

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The self incrimination soon to follow will be evident in indicting the guilty parties that I've mentioned.

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I think you’ve been pretty much self incriminated yourself….

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The predictability of those produced from the same mold is quite reliable.

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That’s why I know what you leftists are going to say before you say it.

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Have a nice day.....…

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posted 07-14-2003 01:10 PM            

John Carpenter had it right all along.

posted 07-16-2003 05:15 AM            

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It's not a rational conversation that you're looking for in the first place.

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Actually I am. You just haven’t shown any interest in or the slightest effort or attempt at rational conversation yet. If you were to give it a shot, I think you’d find this is exactly what I’m seeking. Some might ask why I’m looking for rational conversation among a board of so many irrational people. I guess that’s the challenge of it for me.

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What you want is for me to admit that I'm wrong and that you're right.

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Not true at all. I don’t need you to admit you are wrong or admit anything for that matter. I already know you are wrong. What I’m trying to get you to do is simply make your arguments and back them up with some form of reasoning and logic…so the reader can determine on what basis of reasoning you‘ve used to arrive at your conclusions. I think the fact that you are wrong will be self-illustrative if you do this. I think that’s why you appear to be afraid to be specific. It is my contention that you’ve used absolutely NO reasoning to arrive at your conclusions, and I think you’ve been demonstrating this fact quite well. Like all liberals here, you have, as of yet, proven yourself incapable of rational discourse and confirmed the point I‘ve been making very well. I am completely vindicated.

I am however looking for that one articulate liberal who can back up their arguments with reasoning and have a calm, logical conversation without resorting to demonization and name calling. I still have hope that this rare individual is out there….The closest I’ve seen is ChemCaptain (but I suspect that CC is really a conservative and just doesn’t know it). I want to find a Bush hating liberal, who can back up their point of view with reasoning. So far my search has proven fruitless.

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Not going to happen buddy. First of all, these are MY personal opinions and I'm entitled to them, unfortunately for you, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

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Who say’s I want to do anything about it? In fact, it’s quite the opposite from your insinuation. The reality is that I’m actually trying to get you to articulate your opinions in specific detail. Far from trying to change them. I’m simply asking what your opinions are, and how you’ve arrived at them. We haven’t even gotten THAT far yet.

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I do not desire or need your approval or validation concerning my beliefs or how I feel.

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Who wants to give you approval or validation? I sure don’t.

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Your analysis of me is carries no weight whatsoever and has been disregarded.

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On the contrary, it carries considerable weight towards my general thesis, I think. Because I’m giving you enough rope to hang yourself. I’m allowing you to make my case for me, by demonstrating the nature of a leftist or liberal. You’ve done quite well….I might add.

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My opinions are based upon my own experiences and perceptions of people just like you two. It's not an issue that can be debated with "facts" and articles from your right wing publications.

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I’ve been making points from a perspective of logic and reasoning. I’m simply asking you logical questions. This does not require right wing publications.

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If you can't stomach another persons opinion like a man, you should choose another forum.

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You haven’t articulated your opinion yet. And whatever your opinions are, you sure haven’t backed them up with fact, reasoning or logic. The problem is not that I’m incapable of stomaching them. The problem is that you don’t seem to be able to articulate a specific opinion based upon reasoning, fact or logic….and you simply refuse to discuss what you believe.

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So don't bother to challenge my opinions, you shouldn't have TRIED in the first place.

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Why not? If you don’t want your opinions challenged then you are in the wrong place…..because I’m here to challenge them.

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You've proved nothing and continue to do so.

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Oh…I beg to differ. I’ve proved you are a leftist who is afraid to engage in honest debate, who appears incapable of articulating a cogent viewpoint based on fact and some form of logical reasoning process. You serve as a typical example of the leftist profile.

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I don't expect you to understand or agree with me anyhow.

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Of course I don’t agree with you…Why should you expect it when you say irrational things?

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Robots can only do what they've been programmed to do.

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And you appear to be programmed well with leftist indoctrination and instincts…(as I have pointed out)…

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You go around paraphrasing other people's so called research and claim it as your own.

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I don’t believe I’ve done this. And what research would this be? Give me a specific example of where you think I’ve done this.

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Then you put on the transparent facade of a psuedo-intellectual. Any monkey can repeat and imitate nonsense, hardly impressive. So far you have done an exquisite job of epitomizing the exact type of person I've been discussing.

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posted 07-16-2003 09:03 PM            

I've never seen some one so willing to go out of his way to deny the lies and murder of this
government for "party loyalty".

Makes me want to...

posted 07-20-2003 01:59 AM            

the same one's that do now...

How many drug dealers, rapists, serial killers etc. are a product of this environment?

so all in one sentence you say that all abortions do is just kill the bad guys...that government sponsored "culling" is A-OK with you...

assinine...unAmerican...and insensitive...

you are a troll...not to mention a hate filled fool...

debunking 3rd string talent like yourself is way to easy...and the kill just ain't as sweet for me...

move along little doggy before you get your wittle feelings hurt...I wasn't talking to you anyway...

posted 07-20-2003 02:56 AM            

yep your a troll !

posted 07-20-2003 11:05 AM            

LOL..They can accuse you of many things, Seeker, but NEVER for lack of originality. That's good...I'm going to try to work the word, squidwad into more of my every day conversation.