posted 09-03-2003 05:54 AM            

> I think Bush is the outward expression of what is in the hearts and minds of millions of Americans. We will see next year whether that is really a majority of Americans.

I've lived all over this nation, and I can tell you there are a lot of....people out there to whom George W. Bush would seem like a perfectly acceptable president.

I don't buy that he's fooling the American people about anything. His lies are laughably transparent. Rather, I'm willing to contend that a lot of people out there are giving the administration a wink and a nod, and that they understood perfectly well that Iraq was never a threat to this nation but were willing to allow the cover story of WMDs, al Quaeda or whatever continue to be floated as justification.

I talk to right-wingers and most of them admit they never thought there were WMDs. What they won't say, but what seems to underlie their reasoning, is that 3,000 people were killed on American soil on 9-11 by Muslim Arabs, and they want to see much more Muslim and/or Arab blood spilled as a result. We know for certain, that at least three times as many innocent people have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq than died on Sept. 11, and I think that sets perfectly well with people.

It's like the South during the Nadir years. African-Americans were regularly lynched, and we like to pretend it was a few extremist Klansman. The fact is, lynchings were done with the knowledge and private consent of whole towns of white people.

Read the polls. Just as in the South, the killing and chaos in Iraq still has the consent of the majority of the American people. As well, not many other than a few shrill commentators or rightist comedians will say it aloud, but a lot of Americans think it is perfectly fine to take Iraq's oil if it benefits American interests. I had a conversation with a medical doctor the other day who said his view is that the world is ruled by the strong and the greedy and if we don't take the oil someone else will.

As to other issues such as civil liberties, I don't think as many Americans are really that concerned with their rights as we'd like to think. A recent poll, found that over forty percent of respondents thought the First Amendment "goes too far." If the people of this country really wanted to protect their rights, they would stand up and do it. However, as long as they believe these violations will be leveled against people who don't look or act or worship like they do, it isn't really a big issue.

Many of these same people thoroughly believe in a Darwinian model of economics, even when it is they who are being eaten. Cut taxes and let the Market sort it out. If they are smart and hard-working they'll be rich someday too, and they don't want a bunch of bleeding hearts giving away their money to welfare moms in the ghetto. It's not pretty to hear, but go to a bar where working people hang out and ask around to see how much of this you hear from them. Or for that matter, just take a look at how many unions are blatantly anti-immigrant. Never mind that those unions were mainly formed by poor immigrants fighting for their rights. They are now the haves and don't intend to share with the have-nots.

With the election looming, I think it is more important than ever to stare some cold, hard truths in the face. There is a darkness, a certain cruelness out there in this country. I want to believe that the American people are just being fooled by Bush, but more and more it seems that they know exactly what he is and are making their choice for him and his brand of politics with their eyes wide open.

Bush is charismatic to them because he speaks to a very primal place in them. He spiels out jingoism and vengeance. He may not be able to wrap his mouth (or his mind) around some of the more complex words, but he performs like an old-time tent preacher. He speaks with anger and passion and they love him for it.

I'm sorry to ramble on here, but I don't think closing our eyes to this possibility serves us very well. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe living in the heart of red America has skewed my perceptions. I just haven't seen much to convince me that Bush isn't exactly what a big swath of America desires.<

posted 09-03-2003 08:29 AM            

seems reachout does not have the basic grasp that politians and lies are fairly common all the way back...

seems like "reachout" is just "shitting on" a majority of good folks because of the actions of a few and the distortion of reality that can only be attributed to...liberals...

posted 09-03-2003 10:10 AM            

$eeker posted:
>seems like "reachout" is just "shitting on" a majority of good folks because of the actions of a few and the distortion of reality that can only be attributed to...liberals...<

More on that distortion of reality posted in "..government within the government"
and "...Ron Paul.."

$eeker posted:
>seems reachout does not have the basic grasp that politians and lies are fairly common all the way back...<

Agreed:

Biggest lies ever from the White House:
(From reality's top ten list)
1. Nixon: "I am not a crook!"
(to whole nation)
2. George HW Bush "..No New Taxes!" (to whole nation)
3 & 4."I was out of the loop/I was one of the few who knew..." (to whole nation-under oath to FBI/under oath to OIC investigators)
5. Bill Clinton: "I did not have sex with that woman!" (to whole nation & under oath)
6 & 7. George W Bush: "Saddam tried to buy uranium cake from Africa" (SOTU speech to world)
"saddam is about to use those Weapons of Mass Destruction.."(SOTU speech to world)

8. Ronald Reagan: "...& I helped to liberate the German Death camp..."
(Reagan served in the LA Film Unit & never set foot outside the USA during WWII)
9. Lyndon Johnson: "...North Vietnames patrol boats attacked US Navy vessels in the Gulf of Tonkin..."
(totally bogus story "Northwoods" justification for war powers)

My favorite gotcha of all time:
>Nixon: . . . . Listen, I've done more than my share of lying [unclear] protection [unclear]. I believe it's totally right to do it. . . . The other thing you need to have from me is assurance. I am not going to embarrass the CIA [pounding desk] because it's very important. Second, I believe in dirty tricks. I think you've got to do it -...October 8, 1971: Nixon, Ehrlichman, and Richard Helms, 10:58 A.M-12:12 P.M., Oval Office
Conversation #587-7; cassette #1251<

Reagan & Johnson listed out of order because the Navy may have lied to Johnson &
Reagan is partially excused due to premature alzheimers.

IMHO/ that other Presidents lied is no excuse for the current "Liar-In-Chief"

As Clinton's critics said daily for years:
"The President must be held to a higher standard!"

posted 09-03-2003 10:54 AM            

George W "Dumbya" Bush - "I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

WASHINGTON, DC—In allegations likely to further erode Americans' faith in the office of the presidency, presidents George Washington through George W. Bush may have lied about key matters of national import during their tenures as chief executive, an independent-counsel investigation asserted Monday.

Above: Implicated in the presidential-lying scandal are George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, Andrew Jackson, Martin Van Buren, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler, James K. Polk, Zachary Taylor, Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce, James Buchanan, Abraham Lincoln, Andrew Johnson, Ulysses S. Grant, Rutherford B. Hayes, James Garfield, Chester Arthur, Grover Cleveland, Benjamin Harrison, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, William H. Taft, Woodrow Wilson, Warren Harding, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush.
The report states that the integrity of the presidency "may have been compromised by criminal misdirection, obstruction of justice, and deliberate clouding of the truth for political advantage and/or personal gain by as many as every president since the nation's inception."

While conventional wisdom holds that only two U.S. presidents, Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton, have ever openly lied about anything, the report offers substantial evidence linking all 42 presidents to deliberate acts of deception and dishonesty. Among its assertions are that Thomas Jefferson lied about impregnating one of his slaves; Ulysses S. Grant deceived Congress regarding his role in the Whiskey Ring scandal; Ronald Reagan intentionally withheld key facts in the Iran-Contra Affair; Warren G. Harding told untruths during the Teapot Dome scandal; James K. Polk, Martin Van Buren, and Chester A. Arthur fibbed about the details of trade pacts; and Franklin Pierce was less than forthcoming regarding details of the Kansas-Nebraska Act.

"Shockingly, even William Henry Harrison, a president who was in office for a month and spent most of it on his deathbed, seems to have found time to lie during the famously lengthy inaugural address that would speed his demise," independent-counsel investigator James McManus said. "And so-called 'father of our country' George Washington is not exempt, either. A story familiar to any schoolchild tells us that, as a boy, Washington confessed to chopping down a cherry tree, saying, 'I cannot tell a lie.' Evidence suggests, however, that the entire tale may have been bogus from the start. This is doubly damning to the presidency's reputation, for it is not merely a lie, but a lie about not telling lies."

The report calls into question the integrity of the presidency at a particularly inopportune moment. Coming on the heels of alleged Bush Administration involvement in the Enron and WorldCom corporate scandals, as well as the "Monicagate" impeachment trial of former president Bill Clinton, the implication of every president in U.S. history will likely deepen the public's mistrust and further undermine the credibility of the nation's highest elected office.

Above: Four of the 137 known presidential mistresses.
"If these allegations turn out to be true, this country faces a crisis of confidence of unfathomable proportions," an anonymous Beltway insider said. "If the leader of the most powerful nation on Earth cannot be trusted to tell the truth, then who, in the name of God in heaven, can?"

"We are shocked by these allegations," White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said. "The president wishes to assure the public that he has never lied, and that every one of these accusations of lying—from the 18th century all the way to the 21st—will be thoroughly investigated and, we are confident, disproved."

Calling the report "just the tip of the iceberg," McManus said incidents of lying may plague the government at all levels.

"Every day, new evidence surfaces suggesting that this lying trend is more far-reaching than we ever imagined," McManus said. "It may well extend all the way to the offices of Vice-President, Speaker of the House, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Secretary of the Treasury, White House Press Secretary, secretary to the White House Press Secretary, Senator, Representative, State Assemblyman, Governor, Lieutenant Governor, County Board Supervisor, Alderperson, Mayor, Assistant to the Mayor, City Councilperson, Assistant City Councilperson, Comptroller, Town Coroner, County Librarian, and County Clerk."

On Capitol Hill, the report prompted calls for a thorough investigation of each and every allegation, from the possibility of Bush-Cheney lies regarding Haliburton during the 2000 presidential campaign all the way back to alleged lies told by the John Adams Administration regarding the Huron Indians in 1798.

"The idea that presidents and other elected officials have violated the public trust by telling lies is disturbing and deeply disappointing," U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) said. "We are adopting a 'zero tolerance' position regarding the telling of untruths on the part of any politician—past, present, or future—and we will not rest until each and every lie-teller has been punished to the fullest extent of the law."

posted 09-03-2003 04:44 PM            

"Washington was really from Texas."
Related at a party by a guy then called
"the Congressman's son" or
"Dumb-as-dirt-Dubya"
Houston Texas, circa mid 1970's.

Preface:
"A fairy-tale starts out: 'Once upon a time';
An outright lie starts out: 'This is no shit fellas."

Grinning broadly:

"There was only one tree on the Washington ranch.
A mesquite tree that grew just past the front porch.
Little George's daddy came home from riding the range, and found George sitting on the porch whittling on a branch from that tree.

The tree was cut down & laying in the yard.

"George did you cut that tree down boy?" his daddy asked.
"Yes daddy. I cannot tell a lie.
I cut that tree down so's I could whittle me some."

"Boy! You git in the house and pack yer bags!" his daddy shouted.
Crying, he sniffled out "Why daddy? I done tol you the truth."
"Thet's the problem boy!
Iffin you cain't lie- you'll never survive in Texas."
He spit a chaw of terbaccy..
"Git packed now! we're movin' up east."

posted 09-03-2003 04:54 PM            

sorry boys...as bad as you think he is...he is president and you are slightly above insects on the old food chain...

one more thing...you will have that painful ache in the bowels of your black liberal hearts for two terms...

if you boys could make points without all the hate and venom...you wouldn't be such easy targets...and you wouldn't be so completely dismissed by thoughtful caring people...

posted 09-03-2003 05:06 PM            

I still like the person.
Just detest what gets done in his name.

Like a good guy what fell in with a bad crowd.

posted 09-03-2003 05:18 PM            

that pretty much describes the entire political arena...lobbys big corps and special interest are erroding our fine system...

posted 09-03-2003 05:40 PM            

Leaving the hapless drunk out of the mix.
Even grandkids who show promise die off "conveniently".

Joe Kennedy wasn't the only rich "demmycrat" that got rich by financing Hitler.
even British oil companies sold tetrayethyl lead to spain & thus Hitler during the Blitz.

Wealthy industrialists cast dice with sixes on all sides.
No matter which side wins or loses, they get richer by selling war materials to both sides.

GM subsidiary Opel produced the mass of German truck transports.
Henry Ford also financed Hitler.

Bush bashing because (simply) Prescott Bush financed Hitler (Union Bank of NY) & George the first spoke glowing of the "New World Order"
& grandson Dubya acts like "the Leader"
of a Germany taken over by rightwing zealots:

pre-emptive wars;
loss of liberty at home;
rightwing police state growing stronger every day;
propaganda control of all media outlets;
government and churches unfied in common cause/ etc./etc./etc/

The parallels are too many to ignore!

Those "ethnic outreach committees" that brought "former" Nazis to America & such, raise too many warning flags.
Especially when america's neo-cons also begin to tout "the end justifies the means" Iraq invasion as prime example.

posted 09-09-2003 07:33 AM            

President Bush has spent $79 billion attacking Afghanistan and Iraq and seeks $87 billion more for another year of violence. What he calls "one of the swiftest and most humane military campaigns in history" has taken more than 30,000 Iraqi lives, destroyed "tens of billions" in facilities essential to life, electricity, water supply, sewage disposal, according to Paul Bremer, and left the whole country destitute, in turmoil, growing violence and rage. Thousands perished in Afghanistan where the destruction remains unrepaired, the people disoriented and impoverished, the highway from Kabul to Kandahar is impassable and violence is mounting.

U.S. casualties in Iraq alone have reached 300 dead, 1200 with disabling injuries, and a total of 6000 returned to the United States in body bags, on stretchers, or sick in body or mind. U.S. soldiers are being killed at a growing rate, now 1 or 2 a day.

In the meantime, 2 1/2 million jobs have been lost in the U.S., 1.3 million families slid below the impossibly low poverty line of $17000 a year for a family of four. U.S. government deficits have erased a surplus of $590 billion and created a debt of $400 billion, a trillion dollar loss, with deficits of $400 billion plus expected for the next several years at least.
Not content with his crimes against peace, wars of aggression, crimes against humanity, assassination, summary execution, torture and illegal and secret detentions, President Bush boasted "...and we have captured or killed hundreds of Saddam loyalists and terrorists... seizing many caches of enemy weapons and massive amounts of ammunition. We have carried the fight to the enemy... the surest way to avoid attacks on our own people is to engage the enemy where he lives and plans."

That means more wars of aggression. More summary execution and assassinations. More arbitrary arrests, more illegal detentions and disappearances. Guantanamo is a symbol to the world of President Bush's contempt for human rights: torture, suicides, secret detention, military trials, an execution chamber waiting. Guantanamo should be returned to Cuba now -- a century late.

U.S. forces must be withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan. These must be our last foreign military interventions. U.S. companies must be barred from profiting from contracts for "rebuilding Iraq" which the U.S. destroyed. Ten percent of the U.S. military budget at the 2003 level should be paid into a U.N. fund for the next decade to compensate Iraq and Afghanistan for U.S. crimes against them, to be used as they choose.

We are virtually guaranteed more of the same unless President Bush is impeached for his high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
To take back the Constitution and save our country Vote to Impeach now. This vote is an unmistakable message from the American people. The world and the present Administration will understand this message. It means we do not accept the crimes President Bush has committed in our name and will not permit their repetition.

Sincerely,

Ramsey Clark<