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  Big Govt. Bush (Page 1)

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Topic:   Big Govt. Bush

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5489 posts, Sep 2002

posted 09-05-2003 07:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BIG GOV'T BUSH

September 3, 2003 -- SOME conservatives are convinced President Bush has become a supporter and propounder of Big Government...

Rush Limbaugh went so far yesterday as to say with some despair that his 15 years of broadcasting may have all been for naught. Limbaugh was made heartsick by Republican National Committee Chairman Ed Gillespie, who visited the offices of the Manchester Union Leader in New Hampshire and, in the words of a Union-Leader editorial, "said in no uncertain terms that the days of Reaganesque Republican railings against the expansion of federal government are over."

Others were shocked by Bush's announcement on Labor Day of a new high-level "jobs czar" in the Commerce Department. The president said the loss of 2.5 million manufacturing jobs in the past three years demands a government response.

In Bush's willingness to embrace deficits and big-government solutions to problems like job losses, conservatives see a capitulation to conventional liberalism.

I think Bush is being done an injustice - though as far as I'm concerned he deserves plenty of scorn for speaking a line like "when somebody hurts, government's got to move." (My feet hurt, Mr. President; could somebody from HHS send over a free podiatrist?)

Now, Bush has not fought to control the size of government. His concern has been to do what he can to help the economy grow even as he tries to fight a War on Terror.

That's why he has staked his presidency on a tax-cutting program that has genuinely convinced liberals and leftists that he wants to use tax cuts to force the destruction of big government.

The most important task facing Bush is the War on Terror, and he doesn't want to fight on all fronts at all times.

In any case, politicians only take up the war on big government when it's politically expedient. Neither Ronald Reagan nor the Gingrich Republicans actually cut the size of government. At times, they spent like sailors on shore leave. At the end of the day, they were politicians, not ideological warriors.

The philosophical problem of big government is not really a politician's fundamental issue. Rather, it's a matter for op-ed pages and in magazines, in books and on radio programs like Limbaugh's.

The Union-Leader says Gillespie made clear that "the Republican Party [no longer stands] for shrinking the federal government, for scaling back its encroachment into the lives of Americans, or for carrying the banner of federalism into the political battles of the day."

Somehow, I doubt Gillespie put it so candidly, but the Union-Leader and Limbaugh have put Gillespie and the White House on notice that they can't say and do anything and just get away with it.

After all, those of us who purvey opinions for a living need something to keep us busy.



[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 02-26-2004]

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theseeker
One moon circles

Damnit...I'm a doctor jim
3403 posts, Jul 2000

posted 09-05-2003 08:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for theseeker   Visit theseeker's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

disgusting...you'd figure bush would learn from these two bozo's skyrocketing unemployment, inflation and poor economic environments, as a result from too much big brother...there was a story a few weeks back about how canada' doctor's were leaving in droves because of socialized medicine...but that another topic...

from drudge...

Report Finds Size Of Government Up Sharply Under Bush
Thu Sep 04 2003 12:53:44 ET

The Bush Administration has brought the era of big government back, say a Brookings Institution scholar and a growing number of conservatives dismayed about such growth under the Republicans' watch.

The Wall Street Journal on Thursday reports:

"While the number of official government employees declined slightly after President Bush took office, the Brookings study to be released Friday finds the number of full-time employees working on government contracts and grants has zoomed by more than one million people since 1999, bringing the overall head count to more than 12.1 million as of this past October."

The "eight-page report is likely to fuel debate about the administration's approach, at a time when budget deficits are ballooning and Mr. Bush is pressuring Democrats to hold down federal spending." The report "finds that the growth is happening entirely outside traditional civil-service hiring channels.

'The Bush administration is overseeing a vast expansion of the largely hidden federal work force of contractors and grantees,' according to the report, written by Paul Light, who directs the Center for Public Service at Brookings, a nonpartisan think tank."

[Edited 1 times, lastly by theseeker on 09-05-2003]

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swamp gas
Bird Man of Hudson County


Jersey City, NJ
1296 posts, May 2002

posted 09-05-2003 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for swamp gas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Screw Bush!

Go Schroeder and Chirac!

The US calls them names, pisses on the UN, illegally invades 2 countries, and then wants economic help? Bush can go soak his pointed little head, as far as they are concerned.

skyrocketing unemployment, inflation and poor economic environments

Sounds like what the US is doing now, thanks to those bi-partisan nightmares, NAFTA and GATT.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by swamp gas on 09-05-2003]

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5489 posts, Sep 2002

posted 09-05-2003 12:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's why I said from the get-go...

GW is like Klinton on crack.

No one believed me at first but now even Limbaugh is saying it in his own words.

When will the masses finally WAKE UP and see that this $#!+ has been PLANNED?


All part of the NEW WORLD ORDER.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by Mech on 09-05-2003]

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swamp gas
Bird Man of Hudson County


Jersey City, NJ
1296 posts, May 2002

posted 09-05-2003 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swamp gas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well,

Since Dumbya and Slick Willy are both tooters, they are essentially the same person, representing the Conservative and Liberal branches of the Globalist/NWO minions.


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KNOW-THIS
Senior Member


641 posts, Jul 2003

posted 12-23-2003 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KNOW-THIS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1220-05.htm

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letxa2000
Senior Member


U.S. citizen in Mexico
342 posts, Dec 2003

posted 12-23-2003 01:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for letxa2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mech:
GW is like Klinton on crack.
No one believed me at first but now even Limbaugh is saying it in his own words.

No-one doubts that Bush has problems...

quote:
When will the masses finally WAKE UP and see that this $#!+ has been PLANNED?

That, on the other hand, I'd like to see you prove.

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Boomer Chick
Senior Member


Colorado
668 posts, Sep 2003

posted 12-23-2003 11:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Boomer Chick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Editor's Note | The following remarks were delivered by William Rivers Pitt to a September 11 symposium hosted by WBAI at the Riverside Church on Friday, September 12. Mr. Pitt was asked to speak about the Project for a New American Century, their pre-9/11 plans, and how those plans have been translated into policy by the Bush administration.
New York, You’ve Been Used
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective

Monday 15 September 2003

It is an honor beyond words to stand before the people of this great and noble and brave city to speak on issues of such importance. Thank you for having me, New York. You are the definition of greatness.

You are also the definition of America, and that, in the end, is the reason I have come here to tell you what I have to tell you. You are the definition of America, plurality writ large, brave and brassy and strong and free. The differences between you and the men and women within this Bush administration could not be larger or more profound, and that is the wretched irony of it all. Two years ago, you became the test case for this administration, victims of an ideology that has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of America. Your pain became their excuse. Your woe became their cover. Your fear, and the fear shared by all of your fellow Americans, became a sharp weapon that was used deliberately and viciously against you, and against all of us.Before I begin to explain all that, I’d like to share with you the words of a man whom, it would seem, has a potentially brilliant career as a prognosticator and fortune teller ahead of him. Feast upon this:

"Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in ‘mission creep,’ and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, there was no viable ‘exit strategy’ we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome."

Who said that? George Herbert Walker Bush said that, in a 1998 book entitled ‘A World Transformed.’

Someone once said the apple never falls far from the tree. In the matter of George Herbert Walker Bush and his son George W., and on the matter of invading and occupying Iraq, it appears the apple fell, rolled, got picked up, pocketed, carried, and then thrown into a sewage tank. Something clearly got lost in the translation here. What happened? I’ll tell you what happened. The Project for a New American Century happened.What is the Project for a New American Century? It is a Washington-based right-wing think tank formed in 1997 by members of another Washington-based think tank that is basically the godfather of right-wing think tanks, called the American Enterprise Institute. The Project for a New American Century, or PNAC (or ‘panic’), describes its mission thusly on its web page, newamericancentury.org. The following is some lines from PNAC’s Statement of Principles, dated June 3 1997:

"As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests? We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities. We need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles."

There are a number of names signed at the bottom of this Statement of Principles, but we will get to those in a moment. On the surface, this statement basically sounds like your standard boilerplate Ronald-Reagan-Is-God stuff, right? More hawkish than some might feel comfortable with, perhaps, but nothing to send the world spiraling off its axis. Right?

Wrong.

The Project for a New American Century was formed with a number of specific purposes in mind. The first, and foremost, was to fundamentally reorganize the foreign policy standards of the United States, to change forever the way America deals with the world. The first step in doing this, according to PNAC, was to attack, invade and take over the nation of Iraq. This plan was codified in a scolding letter sent to President Clinton in 1998 which chastised him for not rolling tanks on Baghdad. The next step in the process, according to PNAC, was to invade and take out friendly and unfriendly regimes alike in the Middle East, thus ‘Westernizing’ the region through warfare and bringing our values to them. Implicit within this plan is the PNAC idea that open warfare and wholesale regime-change in the Middle East is all part of "Defending Israel." Unfortunately, the most common thing to see within the progressive community today is two people who agree on 99% of the issues screaming in fury at each other. 99% of the time, that screaming happens because of the fundamental differences between supporters of Israel and supporters of Palestine. This is the rift within the progressive community, and it is a mile wide, and PNAC falls right in the center of it. Now, there are 100 sides to these arguments and these issues. I am not here to stand and espouse one side or the other, beyond this: It is flat insanity to claim that theater-wide warfare and destabilization in the Mideast will do anything but make Israel less safe, and by proxy will cause further suffering and death within the Palestinian community. These are things we have to be able to talk about. We cannot discuss the Bush administration without discussing PNAC. We cannot discuss PNAC without discussing Israel and Palestine. If we cannot discuss Israel and Palestine without shredding each other, we will never be able to address this profound problem.

The PNAC plan was codified in the passage by the Gingrich-controlled Congress of the Iraqi Liberation Act in 1998, an act that made regime change in Iraq a matter of American law. The letter sent to Clinton in 1998, and the strident advocacy for the passage of the Iraqi Liberation Act, both bore the same signatures and fingerprints of the men and women who signed the PNAC Statement of Principles.

The Project for a New American Century came out with a defense review in September of 2000 entitled ‘Rebuilding America’s Defenses.’ This is their flagship document, their reason for existing, and represents the essence of their ideology. It makes for some very interesting reading. This is the document which outlines that revolution in American foreign policy and global military presence I mentioned. It is far, far less benign than the Statement of Principles. In this document lies a plan to make the Defense Department infinitely more massive, and to make America a violently hyperactive and unilateral presence throughout the world. In the section titled ‘Key Findings,’ several items jump right out. Among the ‘Four Core Missions’ listed, you will find the demand to:

"Fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous theater wars;" and, "Perform the ‘constabulary’ duties associated with shaping the security environment in critical regions;" and, "Increase defense spending to a minimum level of 3.5 to 3.8 percent of gross domestic product."

Page 26 of the report carries the following lines:

"The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."
So let’s tie all these threads together, and find out why some wacky right-wing think tank is important. We’ll start with the signatures on that Statement of Principles. Among those who signed on with the Project for a New American Century in 1997, who founded the Project, who stand by its ideologies and who press those ideologies out into an unwitting world, are:
Dick Cheney, Vice President, and former CEO of Halliburton Petroleum;
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense;
Paul Wolfowitz, Assistant Secretary of Defense;
Elliot Abrams, senior member of the National Security Council, who pled guilty to the charge of lying to Congress in the Iran/Contra scandal;
Norman Podhoretz, a writer who described the PNAC mission and the war on Iraq as, "A process of the reformation and modernization of Islam;"
Bill Bennett, whom you’ve surely met if you’ve been to Vegas recently;
Lewis "Scooter" Libby, chief assistant to Dick Cheney.

The list goes on, and on, and on. Not listed on this page, but prominent throughout PNAC, is Richard Perle, former chair of the powerful Defense Policy Board, and perhaps the single most dangerous human being alive on the planet today. In Washington, they call him "The Prince of Darkness." I could spend this entire evening speaking of his influence over American foreign policy, but as there are so may other issues to discuss, I would compel you to research this man on your own.

Understand the ramifications here. The Project for a New American Century was, in 1997, so far out there that nobody ever thought these goofballs would come within 100 miles of power in government. And yet here we stand today, with the chief men from the Project now controlling every single nook and cranny of America’s foreign policy, defense strategy, military, and budget. These guys I just listed, particularly Cheney and Rumsfeld and Perle and Wolfowitz and Abrams, are quite literally the men running America. The Project asked for the fighting of several major theater wars – not the need to be prepared to fight these wars, but to actually fight these wars - and we now have two: Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Project asked for the creation of a permanent military presence in Iraq, and we have Kellog Brown & Root, a Halliburton subsidiary, right there in the mix. Brown & Root’s stock in trade is the building of permanent military bases, and they are there in Iraq today, building.

The Project asked for American commitment to ‘constabulary duties’ in strategically important places, and that is what we now have in Iraq, whether we like it or not.

The Project asked for 3.8 percent of gross domestic product to be poured into the Defense budget, and that is exactly the number – exactly – that this administration’s last budget asked for and got from this Congress.

The Project said, "The need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein." That transcendent need is all the explanation required for why this administration lied with its bare face hanging out for months and months about the threat posed by Iraq. The lies were justified by the ideology, by the "transcendent need" to make war on a nation that, while ruled by a tyrant, posed no threat whatsoever to The United States or her citizens.

To understand the final and complete and total influence the Project for a New American Century has over the foreign policy, and by default the domestic policy of this nation, look no further than the ground-breaking and profoundly important White House document entitled "The National Security Strategy of the United States of America." Released in September of 2002, one year ago almost to the day, this report redefines America’s mission in the world. It states flatly that America will act unilaterally, and that the mission of our government and our military has changed forever. That document is a mirror-image, in ideology and design and in many places text, of the Project for a New American Century’s September 2000 ‘Rebuilding America’s Defenses.’ If you need any further proof that the leading lights of one of the most extremist right-wing think tanks ever formed in America are now running this government, hold those two reports side by side in your hands. Read them, one after the other. You will have all the answers you need.

So let’s recap, as I have just dropped a whole barnload of data on you. In 1997, this think tank was formed. Their principal goals were to radically change American foreign policy and the basic concept of how and why we go to war. By proxy, they wanted to take Iraq over and establish a permanent military presence there. From there, they wanted to take over, basically, the entire Middle East. One broken election later, the prime and powerful advocates for these clearly documented and clearly fringe concepts became the Vice President (Cheney), the Secretary of Defense (Rumsfeld), the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Wolfowitz), the chairman of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board (Perle), and the head of the National Security Council (Abrams). In short, the prime movers of this group became the foreign policy, military, and national security establishment of the United States government.

In 2000, they put out a report asking to fight several major theater wars. Under Bush, they got their wish. In 2000, they asked for at least 3.8 percent of GDP to go to the Defense Department. Under Bush, they got it. In 2000, they asked for a war in Iraq. Under Bush, they got it, and be damned to the truth. In 2000, they asked for the ability to turn America into a nation that attacked first and asked questions never. Under Bush, and his ‘National Security Strategy’ of 2002, they got it. The Project for a New American Century is, in point of fact, the government of the United States of America. What will they reach for if they win the 2004 election?

So what, you may say. September 11 happened. We have to respond.I would answer with the following: First of all, understand that these ideas were formulated well before September 11. These officials within the Bush administration did not cobble these concepts together in the aftermath of that attack, but had them waiting before the attack ever came, and used the attack to bulldog these ruinous policies out into the world. That is disturbing on its face. In a moment, I will share with you the most disturbing part of all. But first, this. A reaction to the September 11 attacks, and to the fringe ideology and the perversion of Islam that motivated them, was and is necessary. Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda are thugs, a protection racket that uses terror instead of Tommy guns. Yet they are heroes to many in the Muslim world. They are not heroes because of what they do. They are heroes because of what we do. They win the hearts and minds of people throughout the world not because of their actions, but because their actions are motivated by our actions.

If we are to win this War on Terror, this new Cold War, we will not do so by bombing decrepit countries and slaughtering Muslim civilians. We will not do so by swaggering across the planet and slapping the international community across the face. In this struggle, I look to one of my favorite Red Sox fans, President John F. Kennedy. Kennedy was by no means a foreign policy prince; he pulled crap that would make Richard Perle blush. Yet Kennedy understood something fundamental about the Cold War struggle, from back when that struggle was as hot and dangerous as it ever got, that resonates in roaring truth today. Kennedy understood that to win the Cold War, America did not simply have to defeat the Soviet Union by force of arms, or threaten to be able to do so. America had to give the rest of the world, especially those regions where communism stood a good chance of taking hold, the belief and understanding that we had a better way. We had to convince the world that were right, and righteous, and though we were not perfect by any means, the hope and goodness of what we represented had to be carried to the corners of the world with something besides a bayonet and a bomb. Hatred of America does not take root when America shows its best face. The bastion of immigration that is New York City proves this beyond doubt. We are not perfect, but we can be very good, and bringing this simple truth to the world will defang these thugs, period.

That is the final failure of this administration, and of these boys from the Project for a New American Century. They believe we can defeat terrorism by kicking ass and taking names, by being violent and unilateral, by basically shoving the worst aspects of our country and our system into the international community’s face and demanding, at gunpoint, that they be with us or against us. Machiavelli said, long ago, that given such a choice, the attacked would always choose to be against. Kicking ass in Iraq, while being exposed as liars and bullies, has proven to be the greatest recruiting poster al Qaeda could have ever asked for. We can defeat these thugs if we go after them properly. We can cut off their funds and their ability to bring in people who will die for the privilege of watching you die. But when we do what we have been doing, when we follow the PNAC plan, we create an unending tide of furious humanity that will, in the end, bury us.

You’ve been used, New York. Your pain and woe has been used to justify a course of action formulated years before those Towers fell. The fear caused by those falling Towers has been used against you, on purpose, to drag us all along on a suicide ride that fulfills the extremist dreams of a tiny minority while filling the coffers of defense and petroleum companies that do not, and will never, have your best interests in mind. Those companies exist to serve themselves, and with the rise of PNAC, they have found their champions. At your expense.

I told you, a moment ago, about the most disturbing part. I told you, also, that these PNAC plans were formulated in that ‘Rebuilding America’s Defenses’ report written long before September 11. I didn’t tell you about page 51 of that report. Page 51 of a report that has become the basis for our war in Iraq, and our new and aggressive foreign policy stance. Page 51 of the report that is now the heart and soul and ideology of this government. Page 51, and one simple sentence: "The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

That was written in September of 2000. It is now September of 2003. Now we have the facts. What are we to do with them? It is not enough to know. We must act.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

William Rivers Pitt is the Managing Editor of truthout.org. He is a New York Times and international best-selling author of three books - "War On Iraq," available from Context Books, "The Greatest Sedition is Silence," available from Pluto Press, and "Our Flag, Too: The Paradox of Patriotism," available in August from Context Books. http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/091503A.shtml
-------
Several articles referring to PNAC: http://www.truthout.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?config=htdig&restrict=&exclude=&method=and&format=builtin-long&sort=time&words=PNAC+

The Corporate Reform Weekly
Vol II, #48 December 22, 2003

Note: This is the last issue of the Corporate Reform Weekly for 2003. We will resume publication in January 2004.

In Short
In Business
New York Stock Exchange
1. NYSE gets a new CEO and an improved governance structure, but questions linger
2. Calpers lawsuit says NYSE is to blame in abuses of specialist system
Mutual Funds
3. Former fund executive sentenced to prison for trying to destroy e-mails in fund probe; Putnam fires nine more
4. Alliance settlement with Spitzer brings lower fees, tension between states and SEC
5. SEC weighs rules to give fund investors more information on trading costs and discounts
6. Mutual Fund group asks SEC to fix conflicts of interest
Scandal
7. Merrill Lynch trader pleads guilty to $43 million fraud
8. PricewaterhouseCoopers pays $54.5 million to settle charges it overbilled on travel expenses
In Washington
Public Company Accounting Oversight Board
9. PCAOB chair says accounting firm's tax work will not be a priority
This Week's Action Item
Tell PCAOB that tax conflicts of interest need to be resolved

In Business

New York Stock Exchange

1. NYSE gets a new CEO and an improved governance structure, but questions linger

The New York Stock Exchange, still trying to rebuild its image after the Dick Grasso $188 million pay package fiasco, last week settled on Goldman Sachs President John A. Thain as the exchange's new head. Thain was picked by John Reed, who took over as interim chief after Grasso's sudden departure this summer.

As president of Goldman Sachs, Thain is a Wall Street insider. Goldman is regulated by the NYSE, and Thain owns $300 million worth of stock in Goldman. Through Goldman, he is a part-owner of Spear, Leeds & Kellogg Specialists LLC, one of the exchange's specialists firms that have come under increasing fire (see #2). Both of these holdings, if not sold off, could create serious of conflicts of interest.

News articles painted Thain as a tech-savvy executive who has criticized the Exchange in the past for not embracing new electronic trading technologies.

Thain will earn $4 million a year as the NYSE's chief. That is significantly smaller than Grasso's outrageous $188 million pay package, but still about 25 times more than the salary of Securities and Exchange Commission chairman William Donaldson, who earns $142,000 a year.

Unlike Grasso, however, Thain will not also serve as the chairman of the board. The NYSE members have agreed to split the CEO and chairman function, a decision supported by Donaldson who said that splitting the roles would help avoid "the concentration of too much executive authority in one individual." At approximately 80 percent of U.S. corporations, the chairman and CEO are the same person, creating dangerous concentration of power. The NYSE split should be seen as a model.

The new NYSE will also have a board of only eight directors, as opposed to the 27-member board of Grasso's era. However, the governance structure came under criticism from the National Coalition for Corporate Reform, a group of state pension funds that argued that the board should have a public investor representative and should split its business and regulatory functions.

But the new NYSE is working hard to distinguish itself from the old NYSE. In fact, the new leadership at the exchange is reportedly considering suing Grasso and the board that awarded his pay package, under the legal premise that the directors were negligent in their duties to the exchange by approving such a package.

For more, see:

"Goldman Sachs President Named Chief of NYSE" by Ben White of the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13707-2003Dec18.html

"NYSE board not enough," by David Callaway of CBSMarketwatch.com: http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid={12C9687A-B3E1-400E-B2BC-B621B678447E}&siteid=mktw&dist=&archive=true

"Next for the Big Board: To Sue or Not to Sue?" by Patrick McGeehan and Landon Thomas Jr. of the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/21/business/yourmoney/21reed.html

2. Calpers lawsuit says NYSE is to blame in abuses of specialist system

A lawsuit filed last week by the California state pension fund (Calpers) alleges that seven "specialist" firms that conduct trading on the floor of the NYSE engaged in improper trading that cost investors hundreds of millions of dollars and that the NYSE failed to regulate them properly.

The NYSE, unlike other stock exchanges, still relies on a system of "specialists" to manually execute trades. Critics have alleged, however, that not only do these specialists provide no value in an era of electronic trading, but worse, they actually hurt investors because they use their first-hand knowledge of which way the market is going to make their own trades first. The SEC has estimated that specialist abuse cost investors $150 million between 2000 and 2002.

"The New York Stock Exchange together with the specialist firms it is supposed to regulate have engaged in fraudulent trading scheme so widespread it has generated untold shareholder losses," said Sean Harrigan, president of Calpers. 'The lawsuit alleges that the exchange looked the other way when these rule violations occurred because it profited them to do so…What all this demonstrates is that self-regulation does not work and that the relationships between the NYSE and the specialists is just too cozy."

Harrigan noted that officials from two of the specialist firms were on the board of the NYSE when the NYSE approved Dick Grasso's $188 million pay package, which Harrigan suggests may have had something to do with the lax regulation of specialists.

The specialist system has been under fire for months. Investor advocates want the exchange to move to an electronic system, but traditionalists want to keep the system. John Thain, the newly-named head of the NYSE, is both a part-owner of a specialist firm and a big enthusiast of new technology. He has not yet indicated his plans for the specialist system.

For more, see: "Pension Fund Sues NYSE, Specialist Firms: Suit Alleges Improper Trading," by Ben White of the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6461-2003Dec16.html

See also the Calpers suit: http://www.calpers.ca.gov/whatsnew/press/newscenter/attachments/lawsuit-nyse-specialist.pdf

For a good look at the how state pension funds are getting more involved in corporate governance see, "After Scandals, State Treasurers Take Aim at Corruption," by Jim Wasserman of the Associated Press: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20218-2003Dec21.html

Mutual Funds

3. Former fund executive sentenced to prison for trying to destroy e-mails in fund probe; Putnam fires nine more

A former executive at Fred Alger Management will spend one to three years in prison for trying to destroy e-mails soon after New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer announced that he was investigating Fred Alger as part of his probe into mutual fund trading improprieties.

James Patrick Connelly, Jr., the former executive, will also pay $400,000 to settle a civil complaint filed by the Securities and Exchange Commission. The SEC said it had evidence that Connelly allowed certain investors to engage in rapid trading, or market-timing, without telling investors. Regulators are also investigating whether illegal after-hours trading took place at Fred Alger.

SEC enforcement director Stephen Cutler said that the sentence, "appropriately sends a message that obstruction of any regulatory investigation is a serious offense from which the most serious of consequences will flow."

In other mutual fund mishaps, Putnam Investments fired nine more employees for improper trading, bring the total to 15. While Putnam has already settled with the SEC, Massachusetts Secretary of State William Galvin is continuing to investigate trading improprieties at the nation's fifth-largest mutual fund.

For more, see: "Mutual Fund Ex-Executive is Sentenced to Prison," by Riva Atlas of the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/18/business/18fund.html

"Putnam discharges 9 more staff for improper trades," by Herbert Lash of Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/financeNewsArticle.jhtml?type=governmentFilingsNews&storyID=4004661

4. Alliance settlement with Spitzer brings lower fees, tension between states and SEC

Alliance Capital will reimburse investors $250 million and cut its fees by 20 percent for five years to settle charges brought by New York State Attorney General Eliot Spitzer that the mutual fund firm engaged in rapid trading (market timing) without telling investors.

Spitzer, who first opened the mutual fund probe in September with charges of market timing and late trading, has increasingly turned his focus to excessive fees, which he believes cost small investors more than trading abuses. For example, Alliance was charging small investors advisory fees six times as high as the fees it was charging institutional investors.

Under the settlement, Alliance will reduce fees 20 percent over the next five years, at a cost of about $350 million. After that, it will have to appoint an executive whose job it is to make sure the fees are set at reasonable levels and are clearly disclosed.

While Spitzer considers this settlement a model, the SEC has criticized it, saying that markets, not government, should decide fees. "The government isn't good at setting prices," said SEC Commissioner Harvey Goldschmid. "If you have good disclosure, competitive markets and an independent board bargaining hard, that's the way to bring fees down." Since Spitzer has no rulemaking power, he can only bring about reforms as part of settlements.

In other settlement, news, Janus Capital Inc., agreed to pay fund investors $31.5 million to cover losses that resulted from improper trading privileges that Janus gave to special hedge funds. Janus admitted that it had allowed 10 investors to engage in improper frequent trading between January 2001 and the first half of 2003. The pay back does not resolve ongoing investigations by regulators.

For more, see: "In Settlement, Alliance Agrees to Cut Fees," by Riva Atlas of the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/17/business/17fund.html

"Janus to Pay Investors $31.5 Million to Cover Losses From Scandal" by Steven Gray of the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16440-2003Dec19.html


5. SEC weighs rules to give fund investors more information on trading costs and discounts

The Securities and Exchange Commission preliminarily approved two new rules that would expand disclosure in the mutual fund industry.

One rule would require more information about volume discounts that are available at various dollar levels, or "breakpoints." Under the rules, fund companies would have to provide more information about these discounts in their prospectuses and make sure that investors get the discounts they are promised. The SEC is currently suing brokers who overcharged investors

The other rule would require mutual fund companies to disclose more information about trading costs, which can add up to quite a bit for investors.

The rules are both now open for comment.

For more, see: "SEC Weighs Changes for Funds' Trading Costs, Discounts," by Dow Jones Newswire: http://www.quicken.com/investments/news_center/story/?story=NewsStory/dowJones/20031217/ON200312171454001278.var&column=P0DFP

SEC's role proposal: Disclosure of Breakpoint Discounts by Mutual Funds: http://www.sec.gov/rules/proposed/33-8347.htm

See also: "For funds, the end of an era: Regulators cast wider net over murky practices and deals." By Jonathan Burton of CBS Marketwatch.com: http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7BDD7C2EED-00EC-4A3D-9D37-895B97B9CBFE%7D&siteid=google&dist=google

6. Mutual Fund group asks SEC to fix conflicts of interest

In an unusual move, the Investment Company Institute (ICI, the mutual fund industry trade group) asked the SEC to enact two rules that would limit conflicts of interest in the mutual fund industry.

1) Soft dollars. Soft dollars are extra fees for things like research that are rolled into the commissions that funds pay brokers when the funds trade stocks and bonds. The ICI wants the SEC to ban soft-dollar arrangements because they hurt shareholders.

2) Directed brokerage. This is where funds will steer trades to brokerage houses as long as those brokerage houses push investors to fund, a kind of you scratch my back, I'll scratch your back arrangement that hurts investors. The ICI wants the SEC to crack down on this.

To see the ICI's letter to Donaldson: http://www.ici.org/statements/cmltr/03_sec_soft_com.html

Scandal

7. Merrill Lynch trader pleads guilty to $43 million fraud

A Merrill Lynch trader accused of putting $43 million of Merrill Lynch money into an Anguilla-based energy holdings company he controlled pleaded guilty to wire fraud and money laundering last week.

Daniel Gordon, 27, admitted to setting up a phony contract between Merrill Lynch and his offshore entity Falcon Energy Holdings S.A in August 2000. But he said he did so under pressure from supervisors to make his energy trading unit look more profitable by reducing Merrill's exposure on another deal through the purchase of a $43 million insurance contract.

Merrill sold its energy-trading unit to Allegheny Energy Inc. in January 2001 for $390 million. In September 2002, Allegheny sued Merrill, saying that the firm misrepresented the financial health of the energy-trading unit and Gordon's experience, which ultimately led to federal charges against Gordon for embezzling $43 million.

Gordon could face up to 55 years in prison and a fine of up to $86 million, twice the $43 million.

For more, see: "Energy Trader Admits Stealing $43 million," by Ben White of the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16439-2003Dec19.html

8. PricewaterhouseCoopers pays $54.5 million to settle charges it overbilled on travel expenses

Accounting firm PricewaterhouseCoopers will pay $54.5 million to settle part of a class-action suit that charges the accounting firm with not properly accounting for its own travel-related expenses on customer invoices.

PwC is charged with failing to pass along travel rebates it received, billing clients the full amount for travel expenses instead from 1991 to 2001. PwC says it will now charge clients flat fees when billing for travel expenses and structure volume discounts as upfront price adjustments.

The class-action suit also names Big Four firms Ernst & Young and KPMG.


8. Six are indicted on federal fraud charges in insurance company take-over

The U.S. Attorney's office last week charged two former chairmen of the French bank Credit Lyonnais and four others for making false statements in connection with a 10-year-old takeover of a failed insurance company.

According to prosecutors, the bank investors who bought the failed insurance company (called Executive Life) made false statement to try to get around a law that prohibited banking companies from owning insurance companies. While Credit Lyonnais acquired a $3 billion junk bond portfolio from Executive Life, other investors who were secretly connected to Credit Lyonnais bought Executive Life.

For more, see: "Ex-Chairmen of French Bank Indicted by U.S." by Andrew Pollack of the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/18/business/18credit.html

In Washington

Public Company Accounting Oversight Board

9. PCAOB chair says accounting firm's tax work will not be a priority

Backing down on earlier promises to crack down on accounting firms who are also doing lucrative tax work for clients, Public Company Accounting Oversight Board Chairman William McDonough now says that that restricting that effort will not be a high priority, according to the Financial Times .

McDonough told the Financial Times that "I do not believe it is a high priority for the board." He said that he was confident that he wouldn't have to get involved because there was "a self-policing aspect of it that makes us not think that the single most important thing we have to do this week is come up with a new edict on tax."

Just a month ago, at a Senate hearing on accounting firm KPMG's role in promoting tax shelters, McDonough had this to say: "Abusive, or even very aggressive tax strategies undertaken primarily to have an impact on a public company's financial statements may be difficult for regulators and other investigators to find, but auditors are in a unique position to identify them. If the accounting profession chooses to rise to this challenge, then it will reap the benefits of renewed confidence in the integrity of its professionals. If the accounting profession shrinks from the challenge, then we will address it for them."

At the hearing, officials from KPMG refused to admit that they were promoting tax shelters, despite massive evidence generated by the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations.

Tax shelters cost the U.S. treasury an estimated $18 billion a year. Under current accounting rules, the same accounting firm that audits a company's books can also provide tax advice to a company, a huge conflict of interest. Senator Carl Levin (D-Mich.) has introduced a bill (S. 1767, the Auditor Independence and Tax Shelters Act) that would eliminate this conflict of interest.

For more, see: "US accounting watchdog rules out early blitz on tax work," by Adrian Micheals and Andrew Parker of the Financial Times: http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1071251666053

To read McDonough's testimony, see: http://www.senate.gov/~govt-aff/_files/112003mcdonough.pdf


For a look at the role that accountants plan in pushing tax shelters, see: "Paying Taxes is For Suckers," by Lee Drutman of Citizen Works: http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/9533


This Week's Action Item

Tell PCAOB that tax conflicts of interest need to be resolved

In an interview with the Financial Times, PCAOB chairman William McDonough said he was not going to focus on a new rule that would restrict auditors from doing tax work for clients. "I do not believe it is a high priority for the board," he said.

Yet, just a month ago McDonough testified before a hearing of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations that detailed how one accounting firm, KPMG, set up and aggressively pushed four tax shelters that cost the U.S. Treasury $1.4 billion. KMPG earned $124 million from 350 clients for those tax shelters. And that's just a small fraction of the $18 billion a year that tax cheating costs the U.S. Treasury. McDonough said that then the PCAOB would make sure accounting firms are not complicit in tax shelter strategies. He shouldn't back down now.

Allowing accounting firms to also sell tax advice to clients is a conflict of interest. Accounting firms are responsible for assuring the accuracy of corporate books, not for helping corporations to slyly avoid paying taxes. Prohibiting auditors from providing tax advice is an important step to removing this conflicts of interest and reducing corporate tax shelters. Without strict regulations, it is unlikely that accounting firms will give up this lucrative consulting work on their own.

As this week's action item, please remind Chairman McDonough that allowing auditors to double as tax consultants results in dangerous conflicts of interest. Please urge him to refocus his attention on rooting out these conflicts of interest and refocus his attention on reforming the accounting industry.

To contact Mr. McDonough, e-mail: mcdonoughw@pcaobus.org

PCAOB Phone: (202) 207-9100
PCAOB Fax: (202) 862-8430

To read McDonough's recent testimony on tax shelters, see: http://www.senate.gov/~govt-aff/_files/112003mcdonough.pdf

For a look at the role that accountants plan in pushing tax shelters, see: "Paying Taxes is For Suckers," by Lee Drutman of Citizen Works: http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/9533

-------------


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Letxa,

Hello Again! Mech holds opinions which are built upon many years of research. To ask him to defend an opinion based on his views, and to find "proof" that this present regime has planned it's foreign policy as well as its domestic and financial policy is really too huge a task.

If I were to answer this to you, from my opinion and information base, I would simply say that similar to the PNAC in attempting to overpower other countries and resources with a plan, the present agenda is to also overpower and control as many institutions as possible. Economically, unfortunately, trickle down does not work. Giving tax breaks and handouts to the wealthy wage earners and corporations does not stimulate job growth. Giving more freedom to the corporations and less freedom to citizens, doesn't work,either. Notice how the government has promised to help in various social programs, but ends up supporting insurance companies (for example in the recent medicare bill) and various corporate and elite interests while actually slashing the social programs and simultaneously creating more bureaucracies, more government control, and more government spending. "Tax and spend" is no longer the criticizing sticking point in referring to liberals or Democrats. OK, given the overtaking of governmental powers in terms of the Patriot Act, the overstepping the Bill of Rights, and the executive priviledge brought on by the so-called "War on Terror", it's also obvious that government is overstepping its bounds into the realm of privacy and basic civil rights. Even recent judicial rulings have underlined this fact in reference to Padilla and two other cases. We won't even mention the deficit as an indication of overspending.

Given that all of this is happening openly and that all can see this, the only question is whether it is planned. I do believe it is planned. The word referring to the plan, is CONTROL. Big government in collusion with coporations in ultimate control of the people. NOT a government of the people, for the people, and by the people. The PNAC is a plan, and along with that is the plan for controlling the people as well.

Mech's readings go into more detail and probably include Sherman Skolnick's writings, and information on the Illuminati. I'm aware of these factions and believe that they could be working behind the scenes. But for me, the obvious is enough to convince me that their domestic direction is wrong, their foreign policy aims too caustic and power-hungry and resource hungry, as well as the weaponry R & D, out of hand and dangerous to all life. I can't call it haphazard!

So, yeah, I agree with mech that there is a plan and the proof of it is in their present and recent actions.

bc


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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5489 posts, Sep 2002

posted 12-23-2003 11:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice work.

Pitt is spot-on.

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JerseyBluEyz
Trust the Universe


Northeast
618 posts, Jul 2003

posted 12-23-2003 11:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JerseyBluEyz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good post Boomer Chick!

Letxa:

Not only is there proof in present and recent actions (as BC said), you can find many examples throughout our country’s history regarding the New World Order agenda. Somewhere within Other Trails exist various timelines (from different viewpoints) regarding this issue. I posted one in particular that starts in 1773. I’ll give you a short excerpt:

Global Governance

1773 - Mayer Amschel Rothschild assembles twelve of his most influential friends and convinces them that if they all pool their resources together, they can rule the world. This meeting takes place in Frankfurt, Germany. Rothschild also informs his friends that he has found the perfect candidate, an individual of incredible intellect and ingenuity, to lead the organization he has planned - Adam Weishaupt.

May 1, 1776 - Adam Weishaupt (code named Spartacus) establishes a secret society called the Order of the Illuminati. Weishaupt is the Professor of Canon Law at the University of Ingolstadt in Bavaria, part of Germany. [This date, May Day, is to become highly significant to the Soviet Communists. They held festive military parades on this day.] The Illuminati seek to establish a New World Order. Their objectives are as follows:
1) Abolition of all ordered governments
2) Abolition of private property
3) Abolition of inheritance
4) Abolition of patriotism
5) Abolition of the family
6) Abolition of religion
7) Creation of a world government

July 1782 - The Order of the Illuminati joins forces with Freemasonry at the Congress of Wilhelmsbad. The Comte de Virieu, an attendee at the conference, comes away visibly shaken. When questioned about the "tragic secrets" he brought back with him, he replies: "I will not confide them to you. I can only tell you that all this is very much more serious than you think." From this time on, according to his biographer, "the Comte de Virieu could only speak of Freemasonry with horror."

1785 - An Illuminati courier named Lanze is struck by lightning and killed while traveling by horseback through the town of Ratisbon. When Bavarian officials examine the contents of his saddle bags, they discover the existence of the Order of the Illuminati and find plans detailing the coming French Revolution. The Bavarian government attempts to alert the government of France of impending disaster, but the French government fails to heed this warning. Bavarian officials arrest all members of the Illuminati they can find, but Weishaupt and others have gone underground and cannot be found.

Oct. 11, 1785 - Bavarian authorities raid the home of an Illuminati member named Von Zwack. They discover Illuminati documents which show quite clearly that they plan to bring about a "universal revolution that should deal the death-blow to society...this revolution will be the work of the secret societies, and that is one of our great mysteries."

1789 - Violence erupts in France. The French Revolution not only overthrows the existing government but also attempts to eliminate Christianity from the nation. A half-naked prostitute is placed on the altar of the Cathedral of Notre Dame and extolled as the "Goddess of Reason." Revolutionary officials even do away with the seven-day week and replace it with a ten-day week.

1796 - Freemasonry becomes a major issue in the Presidential election in the United States. John Adams wins the election by opposing Masonry, and his son John Quincy Adams warns of the dire threat to the nation posed by the Masonic Lodges: "I do conscientiously and sincerely believe that the Order of Freemasonry, if not the greatest, is one of the greatest moral and political evils under which the Union is now laboring."

1797 - John Robison, Professor of Natural History at Edinburgh University in Scotland, publishes a book entitled "Proofs of a Conspiracy" in which he reveals that Adam Weishaupt had attempted to recruit him. He exposes the diabolical aims of the Illuminati to the world.

1798 - George Washington acknowledges that Illuminati activity has come to America: "It is not my intention to doubt that the doctrine of the Illuminati and the principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more satisfied of this fact than I am."
1800's - FreeMason/Illuminati Organizations: Rothschilds/Jacob Schiff Nathan Rothschild vows to kill Czar of Russia and his family.

1812 - Mayer Amschel dies, will sets up the "house of Rothchild" and family laws for their business to operate by.

1815 - Rothchilds trick British stock markets as the "battle of Waterloo" concludes and vastly multiply their fortunes.

1816 - Congress grants a 20-year charter to the Bank of the United States, a private central bank for this country. [The Constitution had granted to Congress the "power to coin money and regulate the value thereof." Thomas Jefferson had specifically warned the American people against turning this power to create money over to a private group that was unelected and not accountable to the public: "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."]

1821 - Georg W. F. Hegel formulates what is called the Hegelian dialectic - the process by which Illuminati objectives are achieved. According to the Hegelian dialectic, thesis plus antithesis equals synthesis. In other words, first you foment a crisis. Then there is an enormous public outcry that something must be done about the problem. So you offer a solution that brings about the changes you really wanted all along, but which people would have been unwilling to accept initially.

1826 - William Morgan attempts to publish a book exposing the wrongdoing of the Masonic Lodges. While he is in the process of having his book printed, he mysteriously disappears. [His body was found in Lake Ontario a year later.]

1828 - Mayer Amschel Rothschild, who finances the Illuminati, expresses his utter contempt for national governments which attempt to regulate international bankers such as him: "Allow me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who writes the laws." [As Sir Josiah Stamp, president of the Bank of England in the 1920s, would remark years later: "Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth; take it away from them but leave them the power to create deposits, and with a flick of a pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again."]

1829 - British Illuminist Frances "Fanny" Wright gives a series of lectures in the United States. She announces that various subversives and revolutionaries are to be united in a movement that will be called "Communism." She explains that the movement is to be made more acceptable to the public by professing to support "equal opportunity" and "equal rights."

1829-1837 - While President Andrew Jackson is in office, there are attempts to continue and strengthen the hold of a central bank over the United States. President Jackson vigorously opposes these efforts. Jackson tells his adversaries: "You are a den of vipers! I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God I will rout you out. If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning." In 1832, Jackson vetoes a bill to renew the charter of the Bank of the United States. In 1833, he removes government funds from the Bank of the United States.

1848 - Moses Mordecai Marx Levy, alias Karl Marx, writes "The Communist Manifesto." Marx is a member of an Illuminati front organization called the League of the Just. He not only advocates economic and political changes; he advocates moral and spiritual changes as well. He believes the family should be abolished and that all children should be raised by a central authority. He expresses his attitude toward God by saying: "We must war against all prevailing ideas of religion, of the state, of country, of patriotism. The idea of God is the keynote of a perverted civilization. It must be destroyed."

1861 - America's civil war, orchestrated by European bankers, English cotton manufacturers and the US southern cotton aristocracy. President Lincoln turns to Russia for help ; Czar Nicholas gives unequivocal help. Russian fleet arrives and hesitates England and France long enough for the North to eventually win.

1865 - President Lincoln refuses to pay exorbitant interest on money provided by Rothchilds (who financed both sides of the civil war.) Some time later was killed by assassin.

*******************

Another thing you might try to do, so you can appreciate the knowledge behind Mech’s mind (since his is the one you’ve singled out) - read through the last 20 pages of Other Trails. Even the last 10 pages will suffice in this lesson!

BoomerChick and I have almost exactly the same ideologies. As I’ve told her many times, she writes more eloquently than I do. Whereas, I am quite blunt and to the point – no fluff. Then there are other posters that do not write much at all. But this is NOT indicative of the knowledge the possess. I’m sure you can see the logic of the point I am making.

As you pointed out, you’ve only been here the past month or so. Most certainly not long enough to assess how much anyone here knows or what they truly believe in. You said you want proof - my suggestion: read the archives. The proof is in the pudding.

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letxa2000
Senior Member


U.S. citizen in Mexico
342 posts, Dec 2003

posted 12-23-2003 11:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for letxa2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Boomer Chick:
"The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

It is funny you bring this up. I literally just finished debating the PNAC issue--and the above specific quote--with another conspiracist on a forum generally dedicated to Biblical prophecy (but with a number of conspiracists in the ranks). The debate went on for well over a month. The conpsiracists conceded nothing, but I learned about PNAC in the process.

Have you read the "Rebuilding America’s Defenses" defense review mentioned in your text? You can find it here. It is 90 pages long and I hope that if we're going to debate PNAC that you will take the time to read it.

The above Pearl Harbor quote was hammered on by the conspiracist I was debating. He was basically implying that the PNAC members wanted another Pearl Harbor with the conclusion being that 9/11 was some kind of Pearl Harbor event designed and executed by PNAC to achieve their defense goals.

Context is important. Here's the full context of the Pearl Harbor quote, from the beginning of that chapter to the Pearl Harbor reference.


    Chapter V: Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force. To preserve American military preeminence in the coming decades, the Department of Defense must move more aggresively to experiment with new technologies and operational concepts, and seek to exploit the emerging revolution in military affairs. Information technologies, in particular, are becoming more prevalent and significant components of modern military systems. These information technologies are having the same kind of transforming effects on military affairs as they are having in the larger world. The effects of this military transformation will have profound implications for how wars are fought, what kinds of weapons will dominate the battlefield and, inevitably, which nations enjoy military preeminence.

    The United States enjoys every prospect of leading this transformation. Indeed, it was the improvements in capabilities acquired during the American defense buildup of the 1980s that hinted at and then confirmed, during Operation Desert Storm, that a revolution in military affairs was at hand. At the same time, the process of military transformation will present opportunities for America's adversaries to develop new capabilities that in turn will create new challenges for U.S. military preeminence.

    Moreover, the Pentagon, constrained by limited budgets and pressing current missions, has seen funding for experimentation and transformation corwded out in recent years. Spending on military research and development has been reduced dramatically over the past decade. Indeed, during the mid-1980s, when the Defense Department was in the midst of the Reagan buildup which was primarily an effort to expand existing forces and field traditional weapons systems, researching spending represented 20 percent of total Pentagon budgets. By contrast, today's research and development accounts total only 8 percent of defense spending. And even this reduced total is primarily for upgrades of current weapons. Without increased spending on basic research and development the United States will be unable to exploit the RMA and preserve its technological edge on future battlefields.

    Any serious effort at transformation must occur within the larger framework of U.S. national security strategy, military missions and defense budgets. The United States cannot simply declare a "strategic pause" while experimenting with new technologies and operational concepts. Nor can it choose to pursue a transformation strategy that would decouple American and allied intersts. A transformation strategy that solely pursued capabilities for projecting force from the United States, for example, and sacrified forward basing and presene, would be at odds with larger American policy goals and would trouble American allies.

    Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event--like a new Pearl Harbor..."

As you can see, they're talking about improvements in military information systems, investing in the development of new weapons as opposed to being satisfied with our current military superiority. And they recognized (but didn't complain) that this would be a long process--but they wisely included the caveat that if there was a major catalyzing event that things would perhaps "transform" quicker.

To someone that hasn't read the PNAC document that might look suspicious. But if you read the entire document you will find that even if you don't agree with it, it is well-written and very well thought-out. A comment such as "a catalyzing Pearl Harbor event" wasn't prophecy or wishful thinking--it was someone writing a very complete document that considers all the possibilities, including a catastrophic catalyzing event. It's very much like a lawyer drawing up a contract and trying to think of every possible contingency. The PNAC document did the same thing by including that caveat. There is nothing sinister about it.

Interestingly, the same PNAC document advocates, among other things, less spending on maintaining a traditional navy with rotating fleet deployment as has been the standard since the beginning of the Cold War. So it's not like this whole PNAC document is about looking for more spending on military hardware. They want a more effective military, but not just by pouring money into new hardware.

PNAC was formed in 1997 and the PNAC document under discussion was published in 2000, but was written during the Clinton Administration--a time when military spending was gutted even during good economic times when we had money available to invest in our defense. 3.8% GDP spending on military is not excessive and they were stressing the need to reverse a lot of Clinton defense budget reductions.

Also the line "The need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein" was taken out of context. The context is:


    "Indeed, the United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

So in context it is clear what the PNAC is saying is that, obviously, the U.S. needs to have a permanent presence in the Gulf and that while Saddam was the immediate justification and threat in the region, an ongoing long-term U.S. presence in the Gulf region is required anyway. I don't think anyone would argue that we need to have some kind of long-term presence and influence in the Gulf. To abandon the region would lead to even more insecurity.

The speaker you quoted implied that that was all the justification needed to attack Iraq even without evidence. But the U.S. didn't need to lie about Iraq to maintain a presence in the Middle East. We already had a presence in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar. The PNAC defense review document says nothing about specifically having to attack and occupy Iraq, only in maintaining a position of influence in the region.

The letter to Clinton from January 26, 1998 can be found here and, of course, PNAC was probably right at that time. It was written at a time when Iraq was expelling U.N. weapons investigators and ignoring U.N. resolutions. It is easy to argue that we should've invaded Iraq in 1998 and we would've had the support of the U.N. and the world at that time. But Clinton didn't act and PNAC was expressing their views.

To say that that letter written to Clinton during the weapons inspector "crisis" of 1998 defined PNAC long-term policy is a mischaracterization. It was an open letter to Clinton regarding what PNAC thought to be an appropriate response in the face of Iraqi defiance to U.N. weapons inspectors in 1998.

Regards!

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5489 posts, Sep 2002

posted 12-24-2003 12:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I disagree...

I believe the PNAC Manifesto is simply another admission/tool of global fascism.

I'm not the only one who sees it either.

Don't think for one second that the U.S. is going to be the "big dog"..as a result of this policy.
It will simply be USED as the MEANS to carry out what the globalists want.


Link:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001064.html



[Edited 2 times, lastly by Mech on 12-24-2003]

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letxa2000
Senior Member


U.S. citizen in Mexico
342 posts, Dec 2003

posted 12-24-2003 12:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for letxa2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mech:
[B]I disagree... I believe the PNAC Manifesto is simply another admission/tool of global fascism.

I'm not surprised you disagree, but have you read the actual PNAC document? Here's the link. It is a long read (90 pages) but I trust that if you are going to debate the issue beyond "I disagree" then you'll want to be fully informed right from the horses mouth.

quote:
I'm not the only one who sees it either. Link:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001064.html

With all due respect, linking back to this same conspiracist forum is hardly compelling evidence. Although if the extent of your position is "I disagree" then, yes, it will suffice and no further justification on your part is required.

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Mech
Tetragrammatron Cleric


Hyperspace
5489 posts, Sep 2002

posted 12-24-2003 12:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah...the "Conspiracy wacko" argument coming to your rescue.

It won't work on me. Ive READ the PNAC document. It IS just ANOTHER blueprint for the globalist plan.

It indirectly SCREAMS..New world order.


It COMPLETELY Urinates on everything the founding fathers and what America stands for.


But don't take my word for it.

http://pnac.info/


"--Now that “the ‘godfather’ of all those neocons,” as Kristol describes himself, has spoken on the subject (and written a book entitled Neoconservatism: The Autobiography of an Idea), the NR/WSJ crowd can no longer plausibly deny the existence of such a movement, as some have tried to do. In addition, they can no longer plausibly claim that neoconservatism is merely another form of traditional conservatism. Nor can they plausibly insist that neoconservatism has anything at all to do with the American founding and tradition of limited government and avoidance of entangling alliances.--"

[Edited 3 times, lastly by Mech on 12-24-2003]

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letxa2000
Senior Member


U.S. citizen in Mexico
342 posts, Dec 2003

posted 12-24-2003 12:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for letxa2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mech:
Yeah...the "Conspiracy wacko" argument coming to your rescue.

I didn't call anyone a conspiracy wacko. It's just not generally acceptable in a debate to essentially "cite yourself" as proof for an argument you are debating.

quote:
Ive READ the PNAC document. It IS just ANOTHER blueprint for the globalist plan. It indirectly SCREAMS..New world order.

I'm not sure whether to conclude that you haven't actually read the PNAC document, you are intentionally spinning it, or I don't understand the meaning of "New World Order."

I always thought the "New World Order" was essentially the idea of a new world goverment (such as the U.N.) and all nations, including the U.S., being subject to its jurisdiction. If that's a correct description of what NWO implies then your suggestion that the PNAC document is just another document for a new world order couldn't be further from the truth.

PNAC advocates a strong--in fact a preeminient--U.S. military force subject only to U.S. control. It completely contradicts every goal I've ever understood the "New World Order" as having.

quote:
It COMPLETELY Urinates on everything the founding fathers and what America stands for.

A strong U.S. military urinates [sic] on everything the founding fathers and what America stands for? I'm quickly concluding you haven't read the PNAC document. Unless that comment was about the New World Order rather than PNAC. If you were talking about the New World Order then I would agree with your assessment. But to suggest that PNAC is a blueprint for the New World Order is just inaccurate.

Again, unless my understanding of what you consider "New World Order" to mean is in error.

quote:
But don't take my word for it. pac.info

I'm looking to debate you, not a whole website you link to. Do you have an issue with any of the points I made in my original response? If so, please take me to task on those specific points and cite links to back yourself up. If you're just going to give me a link to http://pnac.info then I'll just give you a link to http://www.newamericancentury.org and consider it a sufficient reply. We haven't debated anything but at least we've both provided useless links that either of us could have found in Google.


[Edited 1 times, lastly by letxa2000 on 12-24-2003]

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the professor
KNOW YOUR ROLE


heartland USA
1151 posts, Jan 2003

posted 12-24-2003 01:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the professor   Visit the professor's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is there any decent highlights from the PNAC you post or paste here?

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Boomer Chick
Senior Member


Colorado
668 posts, Sep 2003

posted 12-24-2003 01:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Boomer Chick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Chapter V: Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force. To preserve American military preeminence in the coming decades, the Department of Defense must move more aggresively to experiment with new technologies and operational concepts, and seek to exploit the emerging revolution in military affairs. Information technologies, in particular, are becoming more prevalent and significant components of modern military systems. These information technologies are having the same kind of transforming effects on military affairs as they are having in the larger world. The effects of this military transformation will have profound implications for how wars are fought, what kinds of weapons will dominate the battlefield and, inevitably, which nations enjoy military preeminence.

Let's just take the first phrase of this paragraph:

"Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force"

Since when do we, as a nation, need or want to be a "dominant" force? This wording connotes "domination," does it not? Dominating, dominatrix, dominion -- all rather overbearing and aggressive terms, wouldn't you say? I would like to dominate you! How does that feel? I would like to be a dominant force in your world -- as though we were talking one on one -- how would that feel? Am I a friendly cooperative person? Hmmm?

"To preserve American military preeminence" -- the first sentence.

Again, the word "preeminence" places a value judgment on our military in reference to all other world powers. Is this the goal of our defense system? In this wording of both the title and the first sentence the values are strongly set in assuming language. America is to dominate, and be the number one power in the world. Is this what we want? Is this the goal of defense? Or in the word "defense" is there an understood meaning of actually defending if and when attacked? I don't like the language at all from the first words uttered in this section. It smacks of a lust for power, rather than a confidence in simply defending one's territory and or cooperating with others. The difference in the terms "defense" and "dominating preeminence" is vast, very vast, in government idealogy terms.

The last sentence "enjoying preeminance" really stands out in terms of assumptive attitudes as well. Does Sweden or Switzerland ever speak this way? Do the old European countries who feel confident in their abilities to defend themselves in good company -- speak this way in terms of "preeminance?" Let's just look up the meaning of preeminence, shall we?

Merriam-Webster "having highest rank"

And why would we, as a nation, NEED, to have the highest rank? What could be the purpose of having highest rank? If it is mainly for defense purposes, then why even talk about highest rank? Isn't defense more of a factual stability, rather than a potential force for overtaking others? In the area of factual stability one would sensibly include cooperation and alliances with other countries. But no, in this aggressive stance, the notion of cooperation is missing. It literally smacks a sensitive and intelligent reader in the head with connotations and denotations of power assertion and overarching fantasies of world domination. It's all there in the language. So simple.

The overarching assumption is that the world has to and will continue to fight wars! Doesn't this seem like a suicide pact of some sort? Come on! Our weapons are now at the point of destroying the planet, it's people, it's very life. So why aren't leaders contemplating artful social and economic remedies for global mutual cooperation, rather than global dominance and an assumption that war is a reality and an inevitability? Do the world's people WANT war? If you polled all the world's PEOPLE, no one wants war! All want to live in peace, have food to eat, shelter, and a way to contribute to their cultures and societies. Period.

Anyone who actually reads further for more information in this piece, has already missed the overarching message that "war brings peace." It's an oxymoron, like fire brings water, or darkness brings light.

In the art of debate, one can take any side, and in fact, in forensic classes at the high school and college levels, teams and individuals are assigned to take specific sides. But in the case of war and peace, there are only two sides and anyone can take either one. The side, however, that contains common sense morality, common sense dignity, and the original intent of our founding fathers, as well as the will of the nation as a whole, knows that peace is the way to the future, not war, not dominance. If weapons could only stun the victims, like the darts that put animals to sleep rather than kill them, I might be in favor of such dominance as it would be a way to control agents of destruction. But since our weapons are being designed to destroy populations, destroy human life and biological life -- I cannot but read the death knell clanging loudly in my ears when the words fairly jump out of the page at me.

It comes down to a matter of world view, ethics, and morality. Not only is the PNAC poorly written, it is written by warlike minds with no concept of world peace and negociation, or even deterrent capabilities. It goes many steps further in experimentation and development of dominent destructive capabilities with no end in sight, ignoring the world vision of stability and peace.

quote:
In this document lies a plan to make the Defense Department infinitely more massive, and to make America a violently hyperactive and unilateral presence throughout the world. In the section titled ‘Key Findings,’ several items jump right out. Among the ‘Four Core Missions’ listed, you will find the demand to:

"Fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous theater wars;" and, "Perform the ‘constabulary’ duties associated with shaping the security environment in critical regions;" and, "Increase defense spending to a minimum level of 3.5 to 3.8 percent of gross domestic product."

Page 26 of the report carries the following lines:

"The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."


Why must we "Westernize" the Middle East? Who said that had to be done? Who's values are being represented? Not the American peoples'. Why must we defend Isreal in this way?

William Rivers Pitt is no conspiracy theorist! He's a high school political science teacher and a journalist! He's a writer and a truth seeker.

I simply won't debate this with anyone, as I've stated my case in this post and because I affirm my own values and vision for what I want in terms of the world and what I want in terms of peace and war, I stand firm. I support the article by Pitt as an honest and fair introduction and observation of the PNAC. I have also read more than half of the document itself and I have read enough. Nothing is taken out of context when you site whole paragraphs and understand what it says, for God's sake! There is no debate. You either believe that war is good or believe that war is bad. If you take the war is good stance, then you simply disagree on your world views and ethical foundations and that is that. There is no debate. It is undebatable in terms of finding any worthiness in the reading. It is impossible. Those who disagree with you, Letxa, are simply those who oppose the notion of constant war, dominance, and agression. It's as simple as that.

This thread has moved from asking whether the plan of power to dominate is "planned" both domestically and world wide, to actually debating on the PNAC itself! This retrograde motion is unacceptable.

This is my last contribution to this thread.

bc




[Edited 2 times, lastly by Boomer Chick on 12-24-2003]

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letxa2000
Senior Member


U.S. citizen in Mexico
342 posts, Dec 2003

posted 12-24-2003 12:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for letxa2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Boomer Chick:
Since when do we, as a nation, need or want to be a "dominant" force?

We've been striving to be a "dominant" force since the end of WWII, and have been the dominant force since the fall of the USSR. Every country strives to be dominant or to at least have influence. That's why different countries get a chance to be non-permanent members in the U.N. To spread influence. That's why the U.N. General Assembly votes, so member countries can exert influence. Obviously we want to maintain our position of influence. This is completely understandable and every country does it. We've just been the most effective in the last 50 years.

quote:
Again,