posted 10-22-2003 05:51 PM            

Small enough to power the BD5-J

The only live camera footage/images of the Pentagon attack show an F-16 seconds after a missile was fired into the Pentagon.

Did the pilot know firing that missile would lock his controls?

Did anyone know that project Mongoose appendix A- Operation Northwoods would be authorized during the military stand down on 9/11?

Yes.
And their lives depend on making that video evidence available.

Once they realize that;
Dubya and his fellow conspirators are jheaded for jail.

posted 10-22-2003 06:40 PM            

The F-16 that flew over minutes, not seconds, after the attack, belonged to the 119th Fighter Wing, out of Fargo ND.

At the time, they flew F-16A (ADF), Air defence models, as a purely fighter interceptor wing, not air to ground tasked.

Here is an artists depiction of the F-16 making its pass.
http://www.af.mil/photos/images/020904_54.jpg

posted 10-22-2003 07:12 PM            

the Us gov could release more photos from security cameras to refute the obvious,
but,
for reasons unknown,
they do not.

leaving us with only the image of an F-16 seconds after launching a missile as the last security cam image from th epentagon before the blast.

Information or disinformation?

The US Gov has specialized in disinfo for all of my lifetime.

why change now?

posted 10-22-2003 09:21 PM            

You realize that debate and argument are not name calling and flaming, right?

Let's calm down and if you disagree with anything, just post your links and your views of opposition, OK?

Many firemen heard explosions and other WTC survivors as well. The documentation is profuse.

We've been discussing and researching the demolition theory for many, many pages and I was quite involved in the process as well. Please read those pages and get some background information, if you would!

You're coming in here like a bat out of hell and it's not helpful at all.

Take some time and read. Shatoga, Mech, and Swamp Gas know their stuff -- especially Shatoga on this issue.

Larson has been great at debating the issue!

You are welcome, but flaming is not allowed -- and I'm speaking for the board, not as a ruling member, but as a board member only.

posted 10-23-2003 08:00 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by the professor:
Quoting
Many NY firefighters like 52 year old Lou Cachioli were saying "bombs were going off" all around them on their way out of the WTC.

This has greatly been taken out of context, I have the video documentry that the Bush is bad crowd is taking the phrase from. The firefighters are likening to what it was like to witness it first hand, nowhere were they saying it was a bomb. Lets not distort, twist or lie about what is factual.
And I disagree there are a few here who don't know what the hell they're talking about!

---

Your opinion, professor, not fact..........

Reality Check, thanks for being another obnoxious poster, and no, you're not welcome here.

Are you yet another Talking Robot Representing Bush Laden Productions.

BTW, my dad was an airport fireman AND a policeman, and he believed the CIA killed Kennedy. According to him, so did a lot of his compadres. I guess they were all un-American and traitors, even though they all fought in WW2.

As Boomer said, maybe you should read a little more instead of spouting off, and have both sides of the argument before passing judgement.

There are a lot of Relatives of 9/11 victims that don't believe the official story. Are they Putz's and Un-American, Terrorist Supporting traitors, acccording to your definition?

posted 10-23-2003 08:46 AM            

The term "poser", from my own parental experience, is used by the twenty-something set! I would be surprised if this loose-lipped male is over 30. He simply hasn't read and opened up to any of the information and his loyalty to the firemen who risked their lives and lost lives is overwhelming his ability to think. Many are still buying the explanation and mourning the lost.

Let him come back after reading and maybe he'll start to "see" or at least realize the evidence should be carefully examined, objectively and seriously.

It's too bad there are so many emotionally affected who can't get beyond their short-circuited states to be able to discern.

Have mer-cy... mave mer-cy bay-bee!

Yin - yang !

bc

posted 10-23-2003 09:09 AM            

You know that they are not the "Fence Walkers" we talk about. These are people that are hard-wired to operate on Terratorial Brain Circuitry, and are incapable of independent thought. Not an attack, just the neuronautic facts.

For some reason, BushCo Supporters seem to think that if you even question Der Fuhrer's policies, you are disrespectful of firemen and the USA. What a load of crap that is!!! My wife's 2 cousins were firemen, and Dan Rockwell from MOD is a firemen, and they all know how much I repsect their service. I do not, however, respect anyone who is helping sell this country and Constitution up Sh*ts creek, like the Neo-Cons and wimp Democrats in power.

Mech,

Remember when the son of one of 9/11 victims went on Bill O' Reilly's show, and OR attacked him viociously for thinking that Dumbya had foreknowledge.

You wonder what these Neo-Cons and their supporters, O'Reilly, Hannity, Savage, Limbaugh, and Coulter are so pissed at. I mean, they are all millionaires, and are in power. I wonder whether they know their hold on power is illusionary, and most Americans don't think like they do.

posted 10-23-2003 01:08 PM            

read and understand
the truth is not the official version of events.

posted 10-23-2003 01:15 PM            

I've been one of the few who realized that america could never be attacked in such manner.
because NORAD was confugured to intercept and prevent such attacks.

Those who believe the bush fairy tale/
that the entire US Military was incompetent
and unable to defend our nation/
are not dealing with reality.

I've argued with many websites over the past few years.
Some have a part of the truth figured out.
One has most of the truth figured out:
http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.html#pentagon

posted 10-23-2003 01:26 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by nonamed:
ok look by posting that on firehouse.com

---

i believe absolutely the words of those brave firefighters who died on 911 and i believe absolutely the owrds of the survivors who risked their lives on 911.

fire fighters who buy into the coverup risk someday themselves being sacrificed for political gain.

They deserve better.
The memories of those who gave their lives on 911 deserve better than to let the Bush administration get away with murder for political gain.

I stand by my statements.
I remain the person who identified the cause of firemens' death in the Philly high rise fire.

My credentials are indisputable.

whom do you serve?

The Republican National committee?
or fireprevention/firefighting?

Partisan politics is not a part of this debate.

Obviously America's Reichstag Fire was a partisan political sacrifice of innocents for political gain.

The NFPA does not subscribe to lies.

why do you?

posted 10-23-2003 02:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by nonamed:
[B]to think that our government would kill so many of its own people is f*cking nuts!

---

Sure, Sure, Sure, Our beloved clean, wholesome government would never harm it's own people.

Do you people read or what?

Shatoga, Mech, and I have put up OPERATION NORTHWOODS. Research it yourself.

Also, The US government was involved, if not directly caused these lies and murders, which ignited wars.

Sinking of Maine and Lusitania

Pre-Knowledge of WW2

Gulf of Tonkin Fabrication

Kuwati Incubator Fabrication

WTC and 9/11

Iraq War 2

Afghanistan

The Cold War

So, call all the names you want, you obviously are living in a Leave it to Beaver Land of Milk and Honey.

As a matter of fact, we are pretty pissed off at people like yourself, who will back this lying, filthy regime in power, so you can still watch sports and drink beer.

posted 10-23-2003 07:46 PM            

As Boomer said, maybe you should read a little more instead of spouting off, and have both sides of the argument before passing judgement.

ou know you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet thats your problem swamp. I also don't care if you welcome me here or not! It's not a forum of where you think your right on everything you speak of, matter of fact just the opposite, you should maybe do a little more digging before you spread the filth lies that you spew. Also Kennedy asasination has nothing to do with this topic and for the record, yes you have taken firefighters words out of context period.

posted 10-23-2003 07:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by the professor:
Quoting more BS.

As Boomer said, maybe you should read a little more instead of spouting off, and have both sides of the argument before passing judgement.

ou know you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet thats your problem swamp. I also don't care if you welcome me here or not! It's not a forum of where you think your right on everything you speak of, matter of fact just the opposite, you should maybe do a little more digging before you spread the filth lies that you spew. Also Kennedy asasination has nothing to do with this topic and for the record, yes you have taken firefighters words out of context period.

---

Again, all your opinion..........nothing more, nothing less

BTW, I was un-welcoming the poster "Reality Check", not you. A little presumptuous there, professor?

posted 10-23-2003 09:25 PM            

I understand how you feel about those who can't see, but it's often a matter of emotions, not just laziness and accepting of the official FEMA/government line. It's emotions -- fearing the truth --- wanting so badly at a gut level to believe that they died for something. It's an emotional resistance that requires empathy in order to get through to them, not hostility and anger.

It IS frustrating -- and when I couldn't believe chemtrails at first I was lip-lashed online, too -- but it was easier when the anger didn't flow so freely and I wasn't in turn, angered back! That's all I'm saying.

I did hear a little empathy from you with the guys who call "mutt" (which I've never heard before), yet yelling seldom works in the art of diplomacy. Yeah, yeah, you're not a diplomat and you're full of anger and hate because you're a patriot and you love our country -- just like I do! Because we love, because we were born in the U.S.A. !!! But if we're trying to convince, trying to educate, trying to help others who can't see to SEE --- well, you know.

Yet I root for you and scream "YAY" when you lash out! Then I feel guilty! Doi! I think it's not a weakness nor is it feminine-hormonal-nurturing tendencies -- it's the realization that people respond to empathy and patience in a learning situation. If we want to "turn people on" to new information -- we need to be open about our passion with disclaimers or "excuse me's" and not be tempted to return their hostile words in kind. Yes, they need to know they can't just name call, but we need not do the same back!

Yes, there are those who would come to the board just to destroy, but there are those who are coming from a different place. And these past two posters were from a different place.

Shatoga keeps plugging along with his sharing, his credentials, his experience, his knowledge and somehow reigns in his passion most of the time.

BTW, I visited the firemen website, but all I did was read. No posting.

I'm getting off my soapbox now!

bc

posted 10-24-2003 12:21 AM            

No amount of evidence will convince a pragmatist.
Pragmatism is based on the idea that belief is more important than facts.

Bush's followers are the ultimate pragmatists.

For those who care about facts.
Here are links to that security cam photo series the Pentagon released.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/720851.asp?cp1=1

Play it again and again in a vain hunt for the Boeing.
I got An Air Force buddy to examine the photo series frame by frame.
He had worked for Boeing after leaving the Air Force.
(& so is extremely qualified to analyse the photos and identify the aircraft shown)
He clearly saw the F-16, but saw no Boeing.
I've done work on Fire supression systems at Military bases, including in hangars with F-16s.
I've also been to Boeing field and worked on the flight line (Fire Protection again) at one International Airport.
I've seen at least one cruise missle in flight, (up close)
and found no cruise missle nor any Boeing in the Pentagon security cam photos.

The first frame shows an F-16, passing behind the teller machine on the right/
tail and cockpit bubble showing distinctively
orange cone appears to be touching that teller machine.
Heat signature of an apparent missile launch is in front of the plane.
the fireball clearly precedes the impact.

posted 10-24-2003 04:34 PM            

Submitted by: Anonymous "
by Jim Heikkila
Saturday August 17, 2002

Two of the aircraft exceeded their software limits on 9/11.

The Boeing 757 and 767 are equipped with fully autonomous flight capability, they are the only two Boeing commuter aircraft capable of fully autonomous flight. They can be programmed to take off, fly to a destination and land, completely without a pilot at the controls.

They are intelligent planes, and have software limits pre set so that pilot error cannot cause passenger injury. Though they are physically capable of high g maneuvers, the software in their flight control systems prevents high g maneuvers from being performed via the cockpit controls. They are limited to approximately 1.5 g's, I repeat, one and one half g's. This is so that a pilot mistake cannot end up breaking grandma's neck.

No matter what the pilot wants, he cannot override this feature.

The plane that hit the Pentagon approached or reached its actual physical limits, military personnel have calculated that the Pentagon plane pulled between five and seven g's in its final turn.

The same is true for the second aircraft to impact the WTC.

There is only one way this can happen.

As well as fully autonomous flight capability, the 767 and 757 are the ONLY COMMUTER PLANES MADE BY BOEING THAT CAN BE FLOWN VIA REMOTE CONTROL. It is a feature that is standard to all of them, all 757's and 767's can do it. The purpose for this is if there is a problem with the pilots, Norad can fly the planes to safe destinations via remote. Only in this flight mode can those craft exceed their software limits and perform to their actual physical limits because a pre existing emergency situation is assumed if this mode of flight is used.

Terrorists in fact did not fly those planes, it is totally and completely impossible for those planes to have been flown in such a manner from the cockpit. Those are commuter aircraft, not F-16's and their software knows it.

Another piece of critical evidence: the voice recorders came up blank.

The flight recorders that were recovered had tape that was undamaged inside, but it was blank. There is only one way this can happen on a 757 or 767. When the aircraft are commandeered via remote control, the microphones that go to the cockpit voice recorder are re routed to the people doing the remote controlling, so that the recording of what happened in the cockpit gets made in a presumably safer place. But due to a glitch in the system on a 757/767, rather than shutting off when the mic is redirected the voice recorder keeps running. The voice recorders use what is called a continuous loop tape, which automatically re passes itself past the erase and record heads once every half hour, so after a half hour of running with the microphones redirected, the tape will be blank. Just like the recovered tapes were. Yet more proof that no pilot flew those planes in the last half hour.

Eight of the hijackers who were on those planes called up complaining that they were still alive. I'd bet you never heard about our foreign minister flying to Morocco and issuing an official apology to the accused, did you? No, terrorists did not fly those planes, plastic knives and box cutters were in fact too ridiculous to be true. Any of the remaining accused have certainly been sought out and killed by now.

Our information IS controlled

The cell phone calls from the aircraft could not have happened. I am a National Security Agency trained Electronic Warfare specialist, and am qualified to say this. My official title: MOS33Q10, Electronic Warfare Intercept Strategic Signal Processing/Storage Systems Specialist, a highly skilled MOS which requires advanced knowledge of many communications methods and circuits to the most minute level. I am officially qualified to place severe doubt that ordinary cell phone calls were ever made from the aircraft.

It was impossible for that to have happened, especially in a rural area for a number of reasons.

When you make a cell phone call, the first thing that happens is that your cell phone needs to contact a transponder. Your cell phone has a max transmit power of five watts, three watts is actually the norm. If an aircraft is going five hundred miles an hour, your cell phone will not be able to 1. Contact a tower, 2. Tell the tower who you are, and who your provider is, 3. Tell the tower what mode it wants to communicate with, and 4. Establish that it is in a roaming area before it passes out of a five watt range. This procedure, called an electronic handshake, takes approximately 45 seconds for a cell phone to complete upon initial power up in a roaming area because neither the cell phone or cell transponder knows where that phone is and what mode it uses when it is turned on. At 500 miles an hour, the aircraft will travel three times the range of a cell phone's five watt transmitter before this handshaking can occur. Though it is sometimes possible to connect during takeoff and landing, under the situation that was claimed the calls were impossible. The calls from the airplane were faked, no if's or buts.

I hope I made sense, if you have questions I will respond if possible. If I do not respond, please research this out yourself, search the boeing site, search the DARPA site, search were you have not searched before. Some of the information is classified and leaked by individuals, and it is also being scoured from the net. I have all of the original documents on my computer to safeguard against this.

Please do not ignore this, because only Norad has the flight codes for those aircraft, we did 911 to ourselves. Hitler had the Reichstag, we have 911. If 911 proves to not be enough to make the US citizenry set aside its rights for safety, the people who did 911 most certainly have access to nuclear material. 911 must be exposed for what it was before that material is used. "

_http://www.sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=48_____________

Excuse me if this is a repeat. It still bears reading.

Shatoga -- does this mesh with your readings and knowledge?

posted 10-24-2003 08:04 PM            

Since you folks from the other side are reading this thread now, let me clear up a few items:

shatoga:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure I'll believe a Firechief stood in a raging inferno and claimed he saw only two pockets of fire.

When pigs fly!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Boomer Chick:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
they mentioned hearing explosions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have the recordings of the fireground radio communications. Battalion 7 Chief Orio Palmer, my old Lieutenant, did in fact reach the 78th and 79th floor before giving his life. In stairwell A he reported numerous fatalities and that there were "2 pockets of fire" which needed to be extinguished before he could continue up. Not all the fire, just what was blocking his Herculean progress. He may well have performed the most heroic of all feats on that day!

In this 16:00 minute recording, reports of explosions on the 78th floor are given, the time of those reports are 3 minutes into the tape. Almost 30 minutes before the collapse of tower one. I got news for ya Boomer, explosions in fires are NOT a unusual occurance.

You make your assumptions from the safety of your computer desk. You pick through quotes and bend them to meet conspiracy theories. I assumed I could ignore you, I was wrong.

shatoga again:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sudden complete collapse of buildings designed specifically to withstand airplane impacts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not 757s and those designs never took the fuel load into account. Also, at the time of design, fireloads consisting of todays office furniture, computers and other petroleum based polymer fixtures were not taken into account.

Failure of the steel barjoist assemblies is a common hazard in our field. We know about it, we've seen it and we know the results of it, collapse.

I've read the posts in your thread, some of you indicate you would like to hear from a firefighter and hear his side of what happened. Here's my side:

Two planes struck the World Trade Center causing massive structural damage. The ensuing fire caused a massive structural collapse. Sorry folks, that's it, nothing more. No radio controlled bombs, no government conspiracy. Just a couple of dozen militant extremists led down the road to destruction. They are a sick bunch of folks. They trust nobody, hate everybody, ignored their governments and set out on their own to destroy civilized man and live in chaos.

Sorry part of it is this, we have so many of these same ideas in the heads of people here in America, Tim McVeigh comes to mind.

Oh, wait, let me guess. He was a CIA agent sent out to destroy the FBI, right?

Say what you will, I will not change your minds. But do me a favor, leave us out of it. We saw what happened and we are not easily persuaded to “go along with the story”. If there was a hint of inside action here you would be reading it from the mouths of the 12,000 firefighters who were there that day.

I was one of them and this is my opinion. Quote me if you want but understand, I do not speak as a representitive of my department or my brother firefighters.

Hey, you can't keep me from posting here after all. Read this link, this if from someone who was there. GET YOUR HEADS OUTTA YOUR ASSES.

As a former poster, I was PV. I still see Mech thinks he the king now that he has power to do away with people he doesn't like.
I was surprised to see swamp shit still kicking. *^%$ this Forum, It still is a joke.

I got the lowdown on ALL the so called experts here. Be warned, it's gonna bite ya in the ass

SEE YA ROUND

posted 10-24-2003 08:50 PM            

Yes!
He got some truth out to refute the official lies, and to help expose the coverup.