posted 10-30-2003 01:18 AM            

If the majority of people in your county and the majority of members of your school board were Muslims;
Would you then support forcing your child to pray to Allah facing Mecca while in school.
That's the logic rightwing fundies use to justify using government to force their religion on others.

First amendment voluntary addition of religious expression vs government forcing everyone to mouth religious expressions against their will is how many of us see it.

Would be tax dodgers asked a narrow question and instead of a direct answer got a broad statement about separation of church and state.

Failing to see the difference between a narrow question seeking support for tax evasion
and Jesus saying
render unto (gov't) that which is (gov't's) and unto God that which is God's.

You, Professor are an intelligent person.

However,

I strongly disagree with your mis-interpretation of clearly worded scripture/IMHO

One justification for the faked attack on the WTC on 911 is that the fraud was justified to spread the word of God by Bush and those allied with him.

End justifies the means is not of God.

Use of force to spread religion is not Christ's teaching.
who taught use of force to impose your religion on others?
"whurch lady' Dana Garvey had a comment I can't recall...
somebody help me out here:

Diverting the topic because the argument against deliberate demolition of the WTC is lost to begin with?

OK.

It's been clear from the first that the WTC was a controlled demolition.

posted 10-30-2003 10:11 AM            

Here's a recent article with some interesting links:
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/LOU308A.html

Yes, the demolition theory holds the most plausibility!

Excellent job, team!

truth in vigilence,

posted 10-30-2003 10:19 AM            

9/11 Survivor Describes Multiple Explosions

>>> Teresa Veliz, the facilities manager for a software development company, was on the 47th floor of the North Tower when Flight 11 hit. First, like many witnesses, she describes the building shaking twice:

"I got off [the elevator], turned the corner and opened the door to the ladies' room. I said good morning to a lady sitting at a mirror when the whole building shook. I thought it was an earthquake. Then I heard those banging noises on the other side of the wall. It sounded like someone had cut the elevator cables. It just fell and fell and fell.

I began to cry. "Oh, my God, I just got off that elevator!" I said. "That could have been me." I prayed those other people had gotten off on the 48th floor before the elevator dropped. But I didn't have much time to be upset because the building shook again, this time even more violently. The lady at the mirror grabbed onto me and held on for dear life."

Veliz went down a staircase with a coworker to the concourse level. In the mall, they got onto an up-escalator as the South Tower collapsed, causing a rush of wind which knocked them down. In the pitch black, Veliz and her coworker followed someone carrying a flashlight:

"The flashlight led us into Borders bookstore, up an escalator and out to Church Street. There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons. I was afraid to go down Church Street toward Broadway, but I had to do it. I ended up on Vesey Street. There was another explosion. And another. I didn't know where to run."

Source: "Teresa Veliz: A Prayer to Die Quickly and Painlessly," in September 11: An Oral History by Dean E. Murphy (Doubleday, 2002), pp 9-15.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/veliz-bombs.htm

bc

posted 10-30-2003 10:25 AM            

This article from Chief Engineer magazine presents eyewitness account of the moments after the first plane crash, and describes evidence of large explosions in the lobby, parking garage and subbasement levels of WTC-1 at the time of the crash

Link to original article in The Chief Engineer magazine

The above article contains some fascinating first-hand accounts of the events of 9-11 as recounted by operating engineers on the scene. One of the most remarkable is the story of Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the 6th sub-basement of the North Tower when the first plane hit. Here are some excerpts:

Stationary Engineer Mike Pecoraro

At about 6:45 he went to the mechanical shop in the second subbasement, ate his breakfast and chatted with his co-workers who were also arriving for the normal 8:00 a.m. beginning of their shift. Mike’s assignment that day would be to continue constructing a gantry that would be used to pull the heads from the 2,500 ton chillers, located in the 6th sub- basement level of the tower. 49,000 tons of refrigeration equipment were located in the lower level of the tower. The 2,500 ton units were the smallest in use...

Deep below the tower, Mike Pecoraro was suddenly interrupted in his grinding task by a shake on his shoulder from his co-worker. “Did you see that?” he was asked. Mike told him that he had seen nothing. “You didn’t see the lights flicker?”, his co-worker asked again. “No,” Mike responded, but he knew immediately that if the lights had flickered, it could spell trouble. A power surge or interruption could play havoc with the building’s equipment. If all the pumps trip out or pulse meters trip, it could make for a very long day bringing the entire center’s equipment back on-line.

Mike told his co-worker to call upstairs to their Assistant Chief Engineer and find out if everything was all right. His co-worker made the call and reported back to Mike that he was told that the Assistant Chief did not know what happened but that the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and “sit tight” until the Assistant Chief got back to them. By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke. “We smelled kerosene,” Mike recalled, “I was thinking maybe a car fire was upstairs”, referring to the parking garage located below grade in the tower but above the deep space where they were working.

The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop where Vito Deleo and David Williams were supposed to be working. When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.

“There was nothing there but rubble, “Mike said. “We’re talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press – gone!” The two began yelling for their co-workers, but there was no answer. They saw a perfect line of smoke streaming through the air. “You could stand here,” he said, “and two inches over you couldn’t breathe. We couldn’t see through the smoke so we started screaming.” But there was still no answer.

The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. “There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can’t see anything” he said.

They decided to ascend two more levels to the building’s lobby. As they ascended to the B Level, one floor above, they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds, wrinkled up “like a piece of aluminum foil” and lying on the floor. “They got us again,” Mike told his co-worker, referring to the terrorist attack at the center in 1993. Having been through that bombing, Mike recalled seeing similar things happen to the building’s structure. He was convinced a bomb had gone off in the building.

Consider the implications of what Mr. Pecoraro describes. At this point the only overt damage to the building was the plane crash some 95 floors above, which could not have caused violent explosions underground. Since the towers were anchored at the base to the bedrock the shaking caused by the crash would have been greatest close to the crash site, getting progressively weaker as it approached the rigid attachment at the bottom. Yet the underground damage he describes can not have been the result of a mere shaking - nothing short of an explosion could reduce the contents of a machine shop to rubble.

The damage to the parking garage and lobby are also indicative of the effects of high explosives, with widespread blast damage and fine dust covering the scene. Below is a link to a video clip of the WTC-1 lobby area just after the first plane crash, as seen in the documentary "9/11" made by Jules and Gedeon Naudet:

The narrator claims that he "later learned" that there had been an explosion caused by fuel pouring down an elevator shaft, but the lobby shows none of the soot or fuel residue we would expect from such an explosion. Instead we see blown-out windows and a fine dry dust covering the entire lobby, very much the signature of high explosives. Similar damage to the parking garages and subbasements can only be explained by pre-placed explosive charges that were detonated at the moment of the plane's impact.

Another account of underground blasts

Construction worker Phillip Morelli describes being thrown to the ground by two explosions while in the fourth subbasement of the North Tower. The first, which threw him to the ground and seemed to coincide with the plane crash, was followed by a larger blast that again threw him to the ground and this time blew out walls. He then made his way to the South Tower and was in the subbasement there when the second plane hit, again associated with a powerful underground blast. This is one of a series of interviews with WTC survivors done by NY1 News: http://ny1.com/pages/RRR/911special_survivors.html

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/underground/underground_explosions.htm

bc

posted 10-30-2003 11:01 AM            

Here is an interesting info from Wayne Hall from Greece:

"...This is some information on the meeting of the European ATTAC organizations in Aigina on 24th-26th October from the viewpoint of a personal conviction that the American 911 Truth Movement, or at least a substantial slice of its membership, are those most suitable for building ATTAC in the United States.

As a serious international organization ATTAC should be linked to the Americans who want to uncover what really happened on September 11th 2001, not those who want to hide what really happened, or hide from it.

I participated in the international meeting in Aigina as a member of ATTAC-Hellas and as an observer. Observer status was not applied very strictly and observers were allowed to speak. When I spoke, I did not speak only, or even mainly, about 911, but I did mention it in passing.

I took advantage of the opportunity to present a copy of the "Aftermath" video to ATTAC-France President Jacques Nikonov and to Swedish delegate Helena Tagesson, when she informed me that there had been a discussion of 911 in the Swedish ATTAC..."

PS: The biggest anti-war majorities were in Greece (96 per cent)
http://attac.org/indexen/index.html
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2707665a12,00.html
http://physics911.org/net/modules/mylinks/visit.php?cid=8&lid=14

posted 10-30-2003 11:14 AM            

Uncovering the facts behind the myths of September 11th
CBC -October 29 2003 on CBC TV at 9PM

In a special season premiere investigation the fifth estate's Bob McKeown finds that even the most outlandish conspiracy theory may have its basis in a legitimate question. In the course of separating fact from fiction, Bob delves into the labyrinthine and surprising ties between the Bushes and the Bin Ladens. What he finds out may startle you as much as any conspiracy theory.

The Speculation - The Saudi Connection - The Intelligence Breakdown - The Congressional Report The Interviews - Resources

Repeated on CBC Newsworld on Tuesday November 4th at 10 PM, Wednesday November 5th at 1 AM

A short excerpt of how they came back from their first commercial break:
(submitted by Newsjock and JackRiddler (Osamaskidneys.com, 911truth.org), DU

"Think of it as a conspiracy theory true-or-false test.

A: When George W. Bush started his first oil company, who helped fund it? Osama bin Laden's brother and brother-in-law, true or false?

B: After a terrorist bomb at a barracks in Saudi Arabia killed 19 Americans, who got the multimillion-dollar contract to rebuild? The bin Ladens, true or false?

C: On the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, who was in a meeting at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel in Washington? George Bush Sr. and Osama bin Laden's brother, true or false?

Actually, the answer could be D, all of the above. Because, believe it or not, as far-fetched as they sound, each and every one of those things -- the bin Laden link to the Bush oil company, the bin Laden contract after the terrorist bomb, and the bin Laden-Bush meeting on 9/11 -- is true."

< PMCs: Private Military Contractors | GOP Unity is strained by Attacks (Lott: "Just mow the whole Place down") >

posted 10-30-2003 11:35 AM            

New Media Cooperation "Drench Kiss" Launch on Friday

Jason Marrs, 911truthalliance, October 27, 2003

A new media cooperation (Drench Kiss) is setting its sites on Bush and "Official 9/11 story".

Company formation and their first title, 9/11 Whistleblowers: The Authoritative Guide to the Case Against the Official Story of 9/11, edited by Kyle Hence and Sander Hicks (Summer/Fall 2004) will be announced at an event on Friday, October 31st at 4 PM at the Small Press Center in New York City. Announcement will be followed by a Cocktail reception.

From the official press release:
...Charles Shaw, founder of Newtopia Magazine, will announce the formation of the Drench Kiss Media Corporation. With the vitality of youth and the wisdom of experience, Sander Hicks and Charles Shaw have a long track record ruffling establishment feathers and threatening the political life of the Bush Administration.

On the 31st, they will announce Drench Kiss's first title, 9/11 Whistleblowers: The Authoritative Guide to the Case against the Official Story of 9/11, edited by Kyle Hence and Sander Hicks (Summer/Fall 2004). Author Kyle Hence will read a short statement and all parties will be available for questions

. Since 9/11, Bush has waged two wars that have done little for freedom and democracy and much for augmenting the position of the US as the strategic lynchpin of Central Asia. NY Times columnist Paul Krugman called the forged justifications for the attack on Iraq a scandal that dwarfs Watergate. His reasoned analysis is rare in this world of big corporate media, where image and sentiment drown out intelligent analysis.

Drench Kiss is a multi-media attack that includes print publishing, new media, and innovative projects in television and film. Drench Kiss publishes books that are so truthful, so powerful, other publishers are frightened of them. We will examine secrets currently unexamined and broaden the parameters of public discourse set currently by the Establishment media.

Sander Hicks founded Soft Skull Press in 1992 and become well known in 2000 for publishing the controversial Bush biography Fortunate Son, the subject of the critically-acclaimed documentary Horns & Halos. In 2001, Hicks took a leave of absence following the smear campaign and suicide of Fortunate Son author Jim Hatfield. He incorporated DKMC in July 2003.

In 2002, Charles Shaw founded online political journal Newtopia Magazine following four years as scriptwriter for the groundbreaking political radio news show Reality Check with Harrison. Reality Check reported neglected truths about John Ashcroft during the current Attorney General's confirmation hearings. As a result, the show was dropped from syndication in early 2001, due to the blitzkrieg response of the conservative-controlled radio industry. Hicks, Shaw and Hence will be on hand to answer questions.

A cocktail reception will follow.

Friday, October 31, 2003 4pm
Small Press Center: 20 W 44th St,
New York NY 10036-6604, (505) 310-2146
sanderhicks.com/drenchkiss.html
http://sanderhicks.com/drenchkiss.html

< Actor Peter Ustinov compares Bush with Nero | Bush is not welcome in Britain >

Thought some of you might be interested in this, relating to 9/11 and truth! YO!

bc

posted 10-30-2003 02:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boomer Chick:
Another witness to explosions:

9/11 Survivor Describes Multiple Explosions

>>> Teresa Veliz, the facilities manager for a software development company, was on the 47th floor of the North Tower when Flight 11 hit. First, like many witnesses, she describes the building shaking twice:

"I got off [the elevator], turned the corner and opened the door to the ladies' room. I said good morning to a lady sitting at a mirror when the whole building shook. I thought it was an earthquake. Then I heard those banging noises on the other side of the wall. It sounded like someone had cut the elevator cables. It just fell and fell and fell.

I began to cry. "Oh, my God, I just got off that elevator!" I said. "That could have been me." I prayed those other people had gotten off on the 48th floor before the elevator dropped. But I didn't have much time to be upset because the building shook again, this time even more violently. The lady at the mirror grabbed onto me and held on for dear life."

---

So far she has said nothing that would not be unexpected. Of course the building shook.. The force of the impact pushed the top of the building. The whole building swayed back and forth violently as a result.

quote:

---

Veliz went down a staircase with a coworker to the concourse level. In the mall, they got onto an up-escalator as the South Tower collapsed, causing a rush of wind which knocked them down. In the pitch black, Veliz and her coworker followed someone carrying a flashlight:

"The flashlight led us into Borders bookstore, up an escalator and out to Church Street. There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons. I was afraid to go down Church Street toward Broadway, but I had to do it. I ended up on Vesey Street. There was another explosion. And another. I didn't know where to run."

---

So they were in one of the subgrade levels when the south tower collapsed. They then hears a large number of loud noises. {sarcasm} Gee I wonder what could have caused those? Maybe pieces of the collapsing structure. Nah, it must have been a bomb, because buildings don’t make any noise when they fall down. {/sarcasm}

quote:

---

Source: "Teresa Veliz: A Prayer to Die Quickly and Painlessly," in September 11: An Oral History by Dean E. Murphy (Doubleday, 2002), pp 9-15.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/veliz-bombs.htm

bc

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boomer Chick:
First-hand Accounts of Underground Explosions In The North Tower

This article from Chief Engineer magazine presents eyewitness account of the moments after the first plane crash, and describes evidence of large explosions in the lobby, parking garage and subbasement levels of WTC-1 at the time of the crash

Link to original article in The Chief Engineer magazine

The above article contains some fascinating first-hand accounts of the events of 9-11 as recounted by operating engineers on the scene. One of the most remarkable is the story of Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the 6th sub-basement of the North Tower when the first plane hit. Here are some excerpts:

Stationary Engineer Mike Pecoraro

At about 6:45 he went to the mechanical shop in the second subbasement, ate his breakfast and chatted with his co-workers who were also arriving for the normal 8:00 a.m. beginning of their shift. Mike’s assignment that day would be to continue constructing a gantry that would be used to pull the heads from the 2,500 ton chillers, located in the 6th sub- basement level of the tower. 49,000 tons of refrigeration equipment were located in the lower level of the tower. The 2,500 ton units were the smallest in use...

Deep below the tower, Mike Pecoraro was suddenly interrupted in his grinding task by a shake on his shoulder from his co-worker. “Did you see that?” he was asked. Mike told him that he had seen nothing. “You didn’t see the lights flicker?”, his co-worker asked again. “No,” Mike responded, but he knew immediately that if the lights had flickered, it could spell trouble. A power surge or interruption could play havoc with the building’s equipment. If all the pumps trip out or pulse meters trip, it could make for a very long day bringing the entire center’s equipment back on-line.

Mike told his co-worker to call upstairs to their Assistant Chief Engineer and find out if everything was all right. His co-worker made the call and reported back to Mike that he was told that the Assistant Chief did not know what happened but that the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and “sit tight” until the Assistant Chief got back to them. By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke. “We smelled kerosene,” Mike recalled, “I was thinking maybe a car fire was upstairs”, referring to the parking garage located below grade in the tower but above the deep space where they were working.

---

Kerosene, huh? Gee, I wonder what jet fuel smells like?

quote:

---

The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop where Vito Deleo and David Williams were supposed to be working. When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.

“There was nothing there but rubble, “Mike said. “We’re talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press – gone!” The two began yelling for their co-workers, but there was no answer. They saw a perfect line of smoke streaming through the air. “You could stand here,” he said, “and two inches over you couldn’t breathe. We couldn’t see through the smoke so we started screaming.” But there was still no answer.

---

quote:

---

The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. “There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can’t see anything” he said.

---

The building had just absorbed a tremendous amount of energy from the impact and explosions of the jet fuel. That energy had to cause damage. Knowing how large high-rises are put together and how shafts and systems interconnect, I do not find it strange that the damage was spread throughout the building. When the empire state building was hit by a plane in the fog in the late 1940’s, one of the engines wound up in the basement.

quote:

---

They decided to ascend two more levels to the building’s lobby. As they ascended to the B Level, one floor above, they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds, wrinkled up “like a piece of aluminum foil” and lying on the floor. “They got us again,” Mike told his co-worker, referring to the terrorist attack at the center in 1993. Having been through that bombing, Mike recalled seeing similar things happen to the building’s structure. He was convinced a bomb had gone off in the building.

---

quote:

---

Consider the implications of what Mr. Pecoraro describes. At this point the only overt damage to the building was the plane crash some 95 floors above, which could not have caused violent explosions underground.

---

Well apparently it did. Since the plane hit dead on and obviously penetrated to the core, and as descried above, the elevators cables were cut, why wouldn’t you expect other things like the force of the exploding fuel to penetrate down to the lower levels?

You forgot to include the following excerpt from the above article:

”The smoke in the stairwell was constant and at one point, Mike told Arti that he was going to catch a quick breath of fresh air. He walked out into the main lobby of the building, seeing it for the first time.

“When I walked out into the lobby, it was incredible,” he recalled. “The whole lobby was soot and black, elevator doors were missing. The marble was missing off some of the walls. 20-foot section of marble, 20 by 10 foot sections of marble, gone from the walls”. The west windows were all gone. They were missing. These are tremendous windows. They were just gone. Broken glass everywhere, the revolving doors were all broken and their glass was gone. Every sprinkler head was going off. I am thinking to myself, how are these sprinkler heads going off? It takes a lot of heat to set off a sprinkler head. It never dawned on me that there was a giant fireball that came through the air of the lobby. I never knew that until later on. The jet fuel actually came down the elevator shaft, blew off all the (elevator) doors and flames rolled through the lobby. That explained all the burnt people and why everything was sooted in the lobby.”

quote:

---

Since the towers were anchored at the base to the bedrock the shaking caused by the crash would have been greatest close to the crash site, getting progressively weaker as it approached the rigid attachment at the bottom.

---

quote:

---

Yet the underground damage he describes can not have been the result of a mere shaking - nothing short of an explosion could reduce the contents of a machine shop to rubble.

---

Another quote from the above article

Mike and Arti decided it was time to leave as well. They left the stairwell and re-entered the lobby. As they walked to the exit, they heard a roar and the floor began to shake.

“Banging so hard that we fell down on our knees,” he said. “I’m looking south, at the building, Arti’s looking at me, we locked eyes and he is screaming at the top of his lungs...I can barely hear this guy. He’s screaming, “What the f… is that?”, and I am screaming back at him, that I think it’s another plane”.
In reality, as the two were kneeling in the lobby of 1 World Trade Center, its sister building, 2 World Trade Center, was crashing down upon them.
“The building was just bouncing and bouncing, the floor was bouncing. I figured another plane already hit the building”. Mike related. “I’m looking ahead and I see all the windows, either three story tall windows or four story tall windows, 10 feet wide; shatter. All of them broke at the same time. All the glass flew over my head. I’m looking up, on my knees, with my hands on the floor, and I saw all that glass. You’re talking glass three inches thick, go right over our heads. I saw that some of the firemen who was standing on the perimeter (mezzanine) was blown right off the top. They just flew over the top. I can’t put a number on it, maybe ten. Bunch of firemen were guarding doors there. They got blown off. Don’t know where they went. I saw pieces of debris as big as cars go right over my head without stopping. Like a line drive right over my head,” he said, raising his hand to indicate an approximate 4 foot level.
“I put my head down, put my hands over my head. I still had gloves in my hand. I put the gloves over my head and there was a wind that came through the revolving doors that blew me…100 feet to the far wall, right by the visitor’s desk. The floor was covered with sheetrock (powdered) and water so it was like a soup. It was very slippery”.

I don’t see anything in there about any explosions before the tower collapse, do you?

quote:

---

The damage to the parking garage and lobby are also indicative of the effects of high explosives, with widespread blast damage and fine dust covering the scene. Below is a link to a video clip of the WTC-1 lobby area just after the first plane crash, as seen in the documentary "9/11" made by Jules and Gedeon Naudet:

The narrator claims that he "later learned" that there had been an explosion caused by fuel pouring down an elevator shaft, but the lobby shows none of the soot or fuel residue we would expect from such an explosion.

---

quote:

---

Instead we see blown-out windows and a fine dry dust covering the entire lobby, very much the signature of high explosives.

---

One other thing. Do not forget that there was no masonry walls used in the tower structure. Everything was drywall, fairly thick drywall in the core areas to be sure, but drywall just the same. The impact and the fuel blast would have pulverized some of that drywall.

quote:

---

Similar damage to the parking garages and subbasements can only be explained by pre-placed explosive charges that were detonated at the moment of the plane's impact.

---

Sorry, I’m not buying it.

quote:

---

Another account of underground blasts

Construction worker Phillip Morelli describes being thrown to the ground by two explosions while in the fourth subbasement of the North Tower. The first, which threw him to the ground and seemed to coincide with the plane crash, was followed by a larger blast that again threw him to the ground and this time blew out walls.

---

quote:

---

He then made his way to the South Tower and was in the subbasement there when the second plane hit, again associated with a powerful underground blast. This is one of a series of interviews with WTC survivors done by NY1 News: http://ny1.com/pages/RRR/911special_survivors.html

---

This is the exact except from the above link (Apparently the original source ):

”Construction worker Phillip Morelli, a 37-year-old Queens native, loved his seven years of working at the World Trade Center. When he heard the impact of the first airliner striking more than 90 floors above, he thought something big had tipped over in one of the other basement levels just above him.

He encountered smoke and screaming people when he made his way up to the underground parking lot, then started running over to the other tower, the way out from there. He arrived as the second airliner hit, sending the walls crashing down around him.

Morelli escaped, but many of his friends and colleagues died. That’s why today he is helping to rebuild, as part of a crew repairing the damage of September 11 at the Verizon building. “

Notice how it is distorted in this account

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/underground/underground_explosions.htm

Construction worker Phillip Morelli describes being thrown to the ground by two explosions while in the fourth subbasement of the North Tower. The first, which threw him to the ground and seemed to coincide with the plane crash, was followed by a larger blast that again threw him to the ground and this time blew out walls. He then made his way to the South Tower and was in the subbasement there when the second plane hit, again associated with a powerful underground blast.

Sorry, but you don’t have any evidence of explosions as the planes hit, nor as the towers collapsed. (other than what you would expect to be a direct result of the impact and collapse)

posted 10-30-2003 10:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wolf_Larson:
It was in the MSNBC video archive. I am having trouble getting back there myself.

What was interesting is the reports that the South tower was swaying shortly before it fell. Probably as a result of the shifting loads.

---

Swaying as if to fall over

as in normal
to fire damage and building collapse

other than controlled demolitions.

Swaying, then falling over;
unless demolitions cause it to fall into itself.

Logical thing to do is implode the towers to reduce damage and collateral loss of life, it they fall over.

the side weakened by impact and fires should have collapsed, letting upper floors sway and then fall sideways.

Lower floors should have remained standing, even if charred.

posted 10-30-2003 10:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by shatoga:

Swaying as if to fall over

as in normal
to fire damage and building collapse

other than controlled demolitions.

Swaying, then falling over;
unless demolitions cause it to fall into itself.

Logical thing to do is implode the towers to reduce damage and collateral loss of life, it they fall over.

the side weakened by impact and fires should have collapsed, letting upper floors sway and then fall sideways.

Lower floors should have remained standing, even if charred.

---

posted 10-30-2003 10:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by JerseyBluEyz:
Wolf Larson: I can’t open the last site you posted. Help!

I’m still waiting for an explanation regarding the molten steel in the BASEMENT – 7 floors down! And what about the vaporized – cremated – non existent bodies????

---

If the fire reached temperatures of 1500 to 2000 degrees F as it is entirely possible, even probable that it did, what would have happened when these supperheated gasses were compressed by the force of the collapse? As the building came down, it acted like a giant piston.

posted 10-30-2003 11:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wolf_Larson:
For the life of me, I don't understand why you keep insisting that the building had to tip over like a tree. Why would any parts of the building been left standing?


[Edited 1 times, lastly by Wolf_Larson on 10-30-2003]

---

View photos of the buildings in Europe and Japan after bombings and fire bombings.
View images of every single fire damaged building prior to 911.

There is always something left standing unless CDI has worked their magic.

An entire building only collapses into it's own foundations in a controlled demolition.

One of my buildings, at which I supervised installation of fire control systems;
ever collapsed.

We had only installed fire systems only in the basement.
(a disco club)
The upper three floors burned out of control of the fire department and fell onto the basement.

Broken sprinkler mains still flooded the debris and extinguished much of the fire.

Debris covered nearby lots from a mere 3 story fire and collapse.

Remnants of walls still stood 2 stories high and had to be demolished by contractors.

Get my point?

Never in the entire history of the world has any building ever totally collapsed into it's own foundations unless in a controlled explosive demolition.

Does Dubya saying it make it true for you?

Most members of the leader's party believed foriegn terrorists had been responsible for the Reichstag fire.

posted 10-31-2003 01:24 PM            

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posted 10-31-2003 01:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by shatoga:
View photos of the buildings in Europe and Japan after bombings and fire bombings.
View images of every single fire damaged building prior to 911.

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Did Germany or Japan have many 100 story buildings?

quote:

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There is always something left standing unless CDI has worked their magic.

An entire building only collapses into it's own foundations in a controlled demolition.

One of my buildings, at which I supervised installation of fire control systems;
ever collapsed.

We had only installed fire systems only in the basement.
(a disco club)
The upper three floors burned out of control of the fire department and fell onto the basement.

Broken sprinkler mains still flooded the debris and extinguished much of the fire.

Debris covered nearby lots from a mere 3 story fire and collapse.

Remnants of walls still stood 2 stories high and had to be demolished by contractors.

Get my point?

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No I don’t.
What kind of building was it? Masonry? Wood? Do you think that it is correct to compare a three story masonry building to a 100 story steel framed building?

Look at this:
http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/shattered/4.html

That is at leas a five story section of wall still standing.

quote:

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Never in the entire history of the world has any building ever totally collapsed into it's own foundations unless in a controlled explosive demolition.

---

Never in the entire history of the world has a 100 story building collapsed either.

Again, there are numerous photos of several sections of the exterior walls still standing (about 4 to 5 stories high).

quote:

---

Does Dubya saying it make it true for you?

Most members of the leader's party believed foriegn terrorists had been responsible for the Reichstag fire.

---

posted 10-31-2003 09:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolf_Larson:

If the fire reached temperatures of 1500 to 2000 degrees F as it is entirely possible, even probable that it did, what would have happened when these supperheated gasses were compressed by the force of the collapse? As the building came down, it acted like a giant piston.

Furthermore, the whole account of the molten puddels of steel is not very well substantiated. On the other hand, I don't find it that remarkable.

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I am definitely not a mechanic, but I know SOME basics regarding internal combustion engines – that is what you meant right? Of the four cycles (intake, compression, power, exhaust) I do not see how you can hold up your theory in regards to the compression and power stages. In an engine, you have a couple of piston rings that keep gas from escaping by sealing the pressure in the cylinder. How do you figure a building is “sealed” when there are busted windows, air vents, elevator shafts, let alone a hole in its side. There has to be a build-up of violent vapors and then an ignition in order to release the power. Are you saying that an explosion WAS the culprit in this vaporization of bodies, furniture, cement, etc?

It is my understanding that after the 8 month clean-up was done, that only 1,100 bodies of the 2,800 victims were identified. I do not want to get graphic, but I’m sure others were probably identified after the fact. Regardless, we’re talking ½ of them were unidentifiable! Do you mean to tell me that this happened in the jet fuel fire and subsequent collapse? Please don’t tell me you believe that. It takes approximately 1 – 2 hours at a temperature of 1,500 – 1,900 degrees F to cremate a body.

posted 10-31-2003 10:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by JerseyBluEyz:
I am definitely not a mechanic, but I know SOME basics regarding internal combustion engines – that is what you meant right? Of the four cycles (intake, compression, power, exhaust) I do not see how you can hold up your theory in regards to the compression and power stages. In an engine, you have a couple of piston rings that keep gas from escaping by sealing the pressure in the cylinder. How do you figure a building is "sealed" when there are busted windows, air vents, elevator shafts, let alone a hole in its side. There has to be a build-up of violent vapors and then an ignition in order to release the power. Are you saying that an explosion WAS the culprit in this vaporization of bodies, furniture, cement, etc?

---

Sigh, Your close. What I am talking about here is a basic principle of thermodynamics. PV=T. As the building collapsed, the air was pushed downward and compressed. This indeed did result in a violent explosion outward of the windows and walls. You can see this very clearly in the videos as the shock wave proceeded the actual falling components of the upper floors. This is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post when I used the analogy of a boat moving through water. The analogy that BC had problems with.

Your analogy of the internal combustion engine is good, but remember that the core area had numerous elevator and utility shafts. It isn’t really necessary that they be completely air tight. Rather than using a gasoline engine as your analogy, might I suggest thinking of it as a diesel engine. In a diesel engine, the piston compresses the air, the fuel is injected in and ignites in the hot air. When the towers collapsed, the increased pressure raised the temperatures, already extremely high because of the flames, even higher. This in turn caused more materials to ignite, increasing the pressure and the temperature. Sure a lot of that pressure escaped. But still, the energy released in the collapse was tremendous. In addition, we haven’t even touched the whole issue of the heat released by friction as the debris ground against itself.

In any event., there is nothing here that stands out as being that unusual.

quote:

---

It is my understanding that after the 8 month clean-up was done, that only 1,100 bodies of the 2,800 victims were identified. I do not want to get graphic, but I’m sure others were probably identified after the fact. Regardless, we’re talking 1⁄2 of them were unidentifiable! Do you mean to tell me that this happened in the jet fuel fire and subsequent collapse? Please don’t tell me you believe that. It takes approximately 1 – 2 hours at a temperature of 1,500 – 1,900 degrees F to cremate a body.

---

In most typical jet plane crashes, very little of the victims bodies are actually recovered, The force of the crash usually disintegrates, dismembers and disperses the bodies into small fragments. (sorry about the graphic description, but this is a gruesome subject.)

The same issue applies here. I don’t know where you get your figure for the 1-2 hours at 1500 degrees F, but consider this. We are not talking about intact bodies here. I don’t want to get any more graphic than this.

quote:

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Why are you not surprised about the molten steel in the basement especially since the fire was above ground?

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Because, there are reports that burning fuel had penetrated as far as the lobby and basement levels before the collapse.

posted 11-01-2003 01:25 AM            

I got my figures from Cremation Centers. I visited 6-8 and averaged. I actually was generous with my figures as you will see below:

http://www.funeralplan.com/funeralplan/cremation/cremationprocessing.html
1,400 - 1,800 degrees F for 1.5 - 3 hours

http://www.linnhertgeib.com/newsgeorgiacrematory2.html
1,575 - 2,200 degrees F for 1.5 - 3 hours

http://www.dartefuneralhome.com/Cremation_Information_-16879.html
1,600 – 2,000 degrees F for 2.5 - 3 hours

http://www.omegaservices.com/cremation.html
1,500 – 1,950 degrees F for 1.5 - 3 hours

posted 11-03-2003 01:41 PM            

"There is no indication that any of the fires in the World Trade Center buildings were hot enough to melt the steel framework."

eutectic formations = A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.

What causes it? They think SULFER.

".... how much sulfur do you need, and where did it come from? "

speculations:

acid rain
contents of burning buildings
burning rubbers and plastics
ocean salts in the air

They question: did it happen before, during, or after the disaster. After would be during the smoldering stage.

THEY HAD NO ANSWERS!

quote:

---

From a building-safety point of view, the critical question is: Did the eutectic mixture form before the buildings collapsed, or later, as the remains smoldered on the ground. "We have no idea," admits Sisson. "To answer that, we would need to recreate those fires in the FPE labs, and burn fresh steel of known composition for the right time period, with the right environment." He hopes to have the opportunity to collaborate on thermodynamically controlled studies, and to observe the effects of adding sulfur, copper and other elements.

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I find this article inconclusive and possibly pointing to a sulfer component in the explosives! Good one, Larson!

posted 11-03-2003 01:58 PM            

One of the most common sources of sulfur in a building is all around you.