posted 10-02-2003 08:41 AM            

American Free Press has learned of pools of "molten steel" found at the base of the collapsed twin towers weeks after the collapse. Although the energy source for these incredibly hot areas has yet to be explained, New York seismometers recorded huge bursts of energy, which caused unexplained seismic "spikes" at the beginning of each collapse. These spikes suggest that massive underground explosions may have literally knocked the towers off their foundations causing them to collapse.

"MOLTEN STEEL"

In the basements of the collapsed towers, where the 47 central support columns connected with the bedrock, hot spots of "literally molten steel" were discovered more than a month after the collapse. Such persistent and intense residual heat, 70 feet below the surface, could explain how these crucial structural supports failed.

Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, New York, told AFP that he saw pools of "literally molten steel" at the World Trade Center. Tully was contracted on September 11 to remove the debris from the site.

Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Maryland, for consultation about removing the debris. CDI calls itself "the innovator and global leader in the controlled demolition and implosion of structures."

Loizeaux, who cleaned up the bombed Federal Building in Oklahoma City, arrived on the WTC site two days later and wrote the clean-up plan for the entire operation.

AFP asked Loizeaux about the report of molten steel on the site. "Yes," he said, "hot spots of molten steel in the basements." These incredibly hot areas were found "at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven [basement] levels," Loizeaux said. The molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed," Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon.

Construction steel has an extremely high melting point of about 2,800° Fahrenheit (1535° Celsius). Asked what could have caused such extreme heat, Tully said, "Think of the jet fuel."

Loizeaux told AFP that the steel-melting fires were fueled by "paper, carpet and other combustibles packed down the elevator shafts by the tower floors as they 'pancaked' into the basement."

Kerosene-based jet fuel, paper, or the other combustibles normally found in the towers, however, cannot generate the heat required to melt steel, especially in an oxygen-poor environment like a deep basement.

Eric Hufschmid, author of a book about the WTC collapse, Time for Painful Questions, told AFP that due to the lack of oxygen, paper and other combustibles packed down at the bottom of elevator shafts would probably be "a smoky smoldering pile."

Experts disagree that jet-fuel or paper could generate such heat. This is impossible, they say, because the maximum temperature that can be reached by hydrocarbons like jet-fuel, burning in air is 1520° F (825° C). Because the WTC fires were fuel rich (as evidenced by the thick black smoke) it is argued that they did not reach this upper limit of 825° C.

The hottest spots at the surface of the rubble, where abundant oxygen was available, were much cooler than the molten steel found in the basements. Five days after the collapse, on September 16, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) used an Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) to locate and measure the site's hot spots. Dozens of hot spots were mapped, the hottest being in the east corner of the South Tower where a temperature of 1377° F (747° C) was recorded. This is, however, less than half as hot at the molten steel in the basement.

The foundations of the twin towers were 70 feet deep. At that level, 47 huge box columns, connected to the bedrock, supported the entire gravity load of the structures. The steel walls of these lower box columns were 4 inches thick.

CENTRAL COLUMNS SEVERED

Videos of the North Tower collapse show its communication mast falling first, indicating that the central support columns must have failed at the very beginning of the collapse. Loizeaux told AFP, "Everything went simultaneously."

"At 10:29 the entire top section of the North Tower had been severed from the base and began falling down," Hufschmid writes. "If the first event was the falling of a floor, how did that progress to the severing of hundreds of columns?"

Asked if the vertical support columns gave way before the connections between the floors and the columns, Ron Hamburger, a structural engineer with the FEMA assessment team said, "That's the $64,000 question."

Loizeaux said, "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure."

SEISMIC "SPIKES"

Seismographs at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York, 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded strange seismic activity on September 11 that has still not been explained.

While the aircraft crashes caused minimal earth shaking, significant earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred at the beginning of each collapse. The Palisades seismic data recorded a 2.1 magnitude earthquake during the 10-second collapse of the South Tower at 9:59:04 and a 2.3 quake during the 8-second collapse of the North Tower at 10:28:31.

The Palisades seismic record shows that — as the collapses began — a huge seismic "spike" marked the moment the greatest energy went into the ground. The strongest jolts were all registered at the beginning of the collapses, well before the falling debris struck the earth. These unexplained "spikes" in the seismic data lend credence to the theory that massive explosions at the base of the towers caused the collapses.

A "sharp spike of short duration" is how seismologist Thorne Lay of Univ. of California at Santa Cruz told AFP an underground nuclear explosion appears on a seismograph.

The two unexplained spikes are more than twenty times the amplitude of the other seismic waves associated with the collapses and occurred in the East-West seismic recording as the buildings began to fall.

Lerner-Lam told AFP that a 10-fold increase in wave amplitude indicates a 100-fold increase in energy released. These "short-period surface waves," reflect "the interaction between the ground and the building foundation," according to a report from Columbia Earth Institute.

"The seismic effects of the collapses are comparable to the explosions at a gasoline tank farm near Newark on January 7, 1983," the Palisades Seismology Group reported on Sept. 14, 2001.

One of the seismologists, Won-Young Kim, told AFP that the Palisades seismographs register daily underground explosions from a quarry 20 miles away. These blasts are caused by 80,000 lbs. of ammonium nitrate and cause local earthquakes between Magnitude 1 and 2. Kim said the 1993 truck-bomb at the WTC did not register on the seismographs because it was "not coupled" to the ground.

Experts cannot explain why the seismic waves peaked before the towers hit the ground. Asked about these spikes seismologist Arthur Lerner-Lam, director of Columbia University's Center for Hazards and Risk Research told AFP, "This is an element of current research and discussion. It is still being investigated."

"Only a small fraction of the energy from the collapsing towers was converted into ground motion," Lerner-Lam said. "The ground shaking that resulted from the collapse of the towers was extremely small."

Last November, Lerner-Lam said, "During the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and the neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage — but not causing significant ground shaking,"

Evidently, the energy source that shook the ground beneath the towers was many times more powerful than the total potential energy released by the falling mass of the huge towers.

TEST FOR EXPLOSIONS?

While steel is often tested for evidence of explosions, despite numerous eyewitness reports of explosions in the towers, the engineers involved in the FEMA-sponsored building assessment did no such tests.

Dr. W. Gene Corley, who investigated for the government the cause of the fire at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing, headed the FEMA-sponsored engineering assessment of the WTC collapse. Corley told AFP that while some tests had been done on the 80 pieces of steel saved from the site, he said he did not know about tests that show if an explosion had affected the steel. "I am not a metallurgist," he said.

SELLING THE EVIDENCE OVERSEAS

Much of the structural steel from the WTC was sold to Alan D. Ratner of Metal Management of Newark, New Jersey, and the New York-based company Hugo Neu Schnitzer East. Ratner, who heads the New Jersey branch of the Chicago-based company, quickly sold the WTC steel to overseas companies, reportedly selling more than 50,000 tons of steel to a Shanghai steel company known as Baosteel for $120 per ton. Ratner paid about $70 per ton for the steel.

Other shipments of steel from the WTC went to India and other Asian ports. Ratner came to Metal Management after spending years with a Sydney-based (Australia) metal trading firm known as SimsMetal.

posted 10-02-2003 09:24 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thetaloops:
Again TPTB create another tradegy. To what degree they stood down or made the towers fall, I'm not 100% sure, but life has become a real live horror show. The Arabs vs the Christians. A big boxing match with more and more innocent by standers taking the blows.

Loosing their lives and limbs and jobs. We as a race and a species have better look to how to prevent this from continuing. We're not going to get many more chances. We have to VOTE these jerks out or we're finished.

---

RIGHT ON! The Dems may not be angels, but the change would be in the right direction!

We can work on changing the damage done to the system later! For now -- well, YOU KNOW!

posted 10-02-2003 10:20 AM            

Mech and SG? YES! The theme of Christians verses Islamics is obvious! The Koran is rife with statements against INFIDELS.

But this is Biblical:

quote:

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I JOHN 4:18 There is not fear in love but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

---

All is coming to light!

posted 10-02-2003 02:43 PM            

* WTC temperatures reached 1,500 F (the published media figure).
* Jet fuel (burning in air) can reach a temperature of 1,520 F.
* Typical house or office fires burn at 1,700 F.
* Steel melts at approximately 2,800 F.
* Bodies cremate or vaporize at 3,200 F.

Because the WTC fires were fuel-rich, as evidenced by all the thick black smoke, the temperatures could not possibly have reached the 1,520 F jet fuel burning limit. Expensive energy mixtures such as oxygen or acetylene would have to be present for temperatures to reach high enough to cause structural steel damage. Don’t forget, someone on the 78th floor of the south tower stated they hung around for 15 minutes after the impact (impact level was the 80th floor). Proof, that it was not THAT hot in there! Within 30 minutes of this person’s leaving the scene, something happened to cause the steel structure to collapse. Since heat was not the culprit in either of the buildings, what was?

The concrete on one level = 1 acre x 4”. That’s a lot of concrete between the two buildings. Looking at the aftermath photos, there are hardly any blocks of concrete but dust abounds. What does it take to pulverize concrete? The only possible answer in this case, other than an intentional source, is the gravitational energy of the building. “Any extraction of this energy for the disaggregation of the concrete would decrease the amount available for conversion to kinetic energy, slowing the speed of the falls”. And still the buildings did a free fall – which means gravity was not the culprit for the concrete dust. Its ridiculous to even THINK that it was! Watch the videos, you can see a HUGE BURST of concrete dust PRIOR TO THE COLLAPSE.

Mark Loizeaux, the consultant for removing the debris, said there were “hot spots of molten steel in the basements”. Loizeaux also said the hot areas were found “at the bottom of the elevator shafts, down 7 basement levels”. Whoa – that’s pretty deep! We know for sure that is where the molten steel came from because it was found weeks after the rubble removal started – this was also confirmed by NASA. Once again, proof of a culprit! What caused the basement steel to melt?

At first the state’s chief forensic pathologist, Dr. Michael Baden, said "recovered tissues will likely be identified because bodies are not cremated — or burnt beyond the ability to be identified — in the type of fire that occurred at the World Trade Center”. Eventually, the CHIEF medical examiner, Dr. Charles Hirsch, reported that many bodies were "vaporized". Now we’re back to the culprit again - what kind of energy was created to vaporize bodies?

Seismographs showed the plane crashes caused slight ground shaking. But at the beginning of each collapse, there was unusual seismic activity. The significant earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred BEFORE the debris hit the ground. What’s up with that? Whatever it was, it shook the Earth MORE THAN all the mass that hit the ground!

It is my opinion that the culprit was not just explosives, but a combination of explosives and another high energy source.

FIRE THE LIARS!!!

This was one of my favorite reads - I laughed when he said how "smart" the terrorists must be, blah, blah: http://www.serendipity.li/wot/mslp_i.htm

P.S.’s:

Thetaloops: Glad to see you’re posting here too! Welcome (its about time girl!).

posted 10-02-2003 02:50 PM            

It's just so evident.

I have no problem with having religious beliefs, but when they prevent intelligent people from realizing the scientific proof, It really is upsetting and dangerous.

SG, BC and those of us who realize the truth, we can't let up now. As you said:

quote by SG 'and a neutral Democrat would be better than this "Agressive Zombie" in power now.'

And by continuing to speakout:

quote by BC 'All is coming to light!

posted 10-02-2003 03:48 PM            

If you dont trust government and media you must be a "liberal".

Hmmmm...wow! New member just jumped in here.

You sound a lot like Chem Captain who was banned from here not too long ago.

posted 10-02-2003 04:56 PM            

quote:

---

Because the WTC fires were fuel-rich, as evidenced by all the thick black smoke, the temperatures could not possibly have reached the 1,520 F jet fuel burning limit. Expensive energy mixtures such as oxygen or acetylene would have to be present for temperatures to reach high enough to cause structural steel damage. Don’t forget, someone on the 78th floor of the south tower stated they hung around for 15 minutes after the impact (impact level was the 80th floor). Proof, that it was not THAT hot in there! Within 30 minutes of this person’s leaving the scene, something happened to cause the steel structure to collapse. Since heat was not the culprit in either of the buildings, what was?

---

quote:

---

The concrete on one level = 1 acre x 4”. That’s a lot of concrete between the two buildings. Looking at the aftermath photos, there are hardly any blocks of concrete but dust abounds. What does it take to pulverize concrete? The only possible answer in this case, other than an intentional source, is the gravitational energy of the building. “Any extraction of this energy for the disaggregation of the concrete would decrease the amount available for conversion to kinetic energy, slowing the speed of the falls”. And still the buildings did a free fall – which means gravity was not the culprit for the concrete dust. Its ridiculous to even THINK that it was! Watch the videos, you can see a HUGE BURST of concrete dust PRIOR TO THE COLLAPSE.

---

quote:

---

Mark Loizeaux, the consultant for removing the debris, said there were “hot spots of molten steel in the basements”. Loizeaux also said the hot areas were found “at the bottom of the elevator shafts, down 7 basement levels”. Whoa – that’s pretty deep! We know for sure that is where the molten steel came from because it was found weeks after the rubble removal started – this was also confirmed by NASA. Once again, proof of a culprit! What caused the basement steel to melt?

---

quote:

---

At first the state’s chief forensic pathologist, Dr. Michael Baden, said "recovered tissues will likely be identified because bodies are not cremated — or burnt beyond the ability to be identified — in the type of fire that occurred at the World Trade Center”. Eventually, the CHIEF medical examiner, Dr. Charles Hirsch, reported that many bodies were "vaporized". Now we’re back to the culprit again - what kind of energy was created to vaporize bodies?

---

quote:

---

Seismographs showed the plane crashes caused slight ground shaking. But at the beginning of each collapse, there was unusual seismic activity. The significant earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred BEFORE the debris hit the ground. What’s up with that? Whatever it was, it shook the Earth MORE THAN all the mass that hit the ground!

---

quote:

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It is my opinion that the culprit was not just explosives, but a combination of explosives and another high energy source.

---

Conspiracy theories like this are an insult to all the people who died on that day. You try to take the blame away from the real murderers. Did the firemen and police plant those ‘explosives’ at the same time they were risking their own lives, and some actually losing theirs, trying to save people. In all that chaos, they probably just missed the tons of explosives laying around.

posted 10-02-2003 05:15 PM            

In this case, it has nothing to do with partisan politics. I would hope that everybody that reads this, sees it for exactly what it is. Stating that here would be breaking the board rules. Speaking of which, there is also a board rule about knowingly posting false information.

posted 10-02-2003 05:52 PM            

Non-Partisan my @$$.

Judging by you screen name..you are ANYTHING BUT Partisan and one-sided in your views.

posted 10-02-2003 06:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mech:
YOU certainly arent going to define what is "knowingly false".

Non-Partisan my @$$.

Judging by you screen name..you are ANYTHING BUT Partisan and one-sided in your views.

---

posted 10-02-2003 07:12 PM            

they don't read anyone's posts, and believe what the CIA controlled media pours into their collective Mini-Fascist brains.

It's almost a sick joke. Their heroes are Drug addicts (Limbaugh), War Criminals (Bush, Sharon), sluts (Scwantzenholder), liars (Bush et al), propaganda ministers (O'Reilly), and Nazi sympathizers (Nixon, McCarthy). Your little hate party is falling apart, and I have the feeling you two aren't going to be here at CTC too much longer.

No comments on the molten steel from the peanut gallery. Somebody sure sounds like acetylene was used.

what grade school Physicist thinks that the sum of composite materials burning is added together. According to this theory, then 7 pieces of paper, each burning at 400-450degree F, wouyld be equal to a temperature of 3000 Degree F?

posted 10-02-2003 07:16 PM            

As for me..I think its complete BS.

Those buildings came down with lots of help from this government.

Same with WTC #7

posted 10-02-2003 07:36 PM            

You have a way with words, man......Tell it like it is.

Their little world is falling apart, so pity them.

Mech,
How about the conspiracy theory that a bunch of guys with towels on their heads in a cave from Afghanistan, orchestrated the biggest attack on the US since Pearl Harbor?

posted 10-02-2003 08:33 PM            

quote:

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The plane is carrying 92 people—and roughly 10,000 gal of jet fuel. The photographic record of this event will reveal that the entire plane penetrates the north facade before there is visual evidence of flames or an explosion. The fireball that erupts a split second later—sparked by the ignition of a vapor cloud of jet fuel—consumes between 1,000 and 3,000 gal of fuel; the remainder of the burning fuel flows across the impact floors—like an immense spill of lighter fluid on fire—then down the face of the building and down through elevator and utility shafts. It will subsequently be believed that this fuel burned off within a few minutes of impact; however, as it washes across the impacted floors it ignites intense fires that are fed by office furnishings, computers, paper files, and anything else that is combustible—including the flammable contents of the aircraft—and these fires spread through the upper portions of the building. Debris from the aircraft is propelled through the south facade: life jackets and portions of seats will subsequently be found on the roof of the Bankers Trust Building, which is located just south of the World Trade Center complex, between Greenwich and Washington streets, and landing gear will be found at the corner of West and Rector streets, five blocks south of the complex. The passage of this debris through the building causes some degree of damage across the floor plate—damage to perhaps the interior framing, core columns, and framing at the east, south, and west walls; the full extent of the damage inflicted by this passage will never be known, however.

. . . .

The second aircraft struck the eastern half of the south face of WTC 2 approximately between the 78th and 84th floors. Massive damage was inflicted on the south face of the building in the zone of impact. Within the central zone of impact, where the airplane fuselage and engines struck, six of the prefabricated, three-column sections that formed the exterior walls were broken loose of the structure, and some of the building elements were apparently thrust inside the building envelope. As in the impact of the plane on WTC 1, the floors supported by these exterior wall sections appear to have partially collapsed, losing their support along the exterior wall. In the areas impacted by the outer wing structures, the exterior steel columns were fractured on impact. Photographic evidence will subsequently suggest that between 27 and 32 columns along the south building face were destroyed over portions of a five-story range. Partial collapse of floors in this zone appears to have occurred over a horizontal length of wall of approximately 70 ft; floors in other portions of the building appear to have remained intact. It is probable that the columns in the southwest corner of the core also experienced some damage because they would have been in the direct path of the fuselage and port engine.

Subsequent interviews of people who were located on the 91st floor at the time the plane struck will reveal that a significant—but undefined—degree of damage was sustained by framing at the central core. The descriptions these people will provide of the damage they saw at the 91st floor suggest that there was relatively slight damage at the exterior wall of the building and progressively greater damage to the south and east. In particular, they observed extensive debris in the eastern portion of the central core, making it impossible for them to exit from the easternmost stairway. Their observations will suggest the possibility of the immediate partial collapse of framing in the tower's central core. They will also observe debris in the stairways located farther to the west, suggesting the possibility of some structural damage in the northwestern portion of the core framing.

. . .

The fires spread, and there are significant temperature variations throughout those areas where the fires are located, depending on the type and arrangement of combustible material being consumed and the availability of air supporting combustion. The advancing fires elevate the temperature within the tower. Future estimates will place it between 1,700º and 2,000ºF—further stressing the structure. At the 80th floor of WTC 2—in the northeast corner, where office furnishings had been deposited by the rapid path of the plane—the fire burns at such a high temperature that a stream of molten metal begins to pour over the side of the tower. The heat output from these fires will later be estimated to have been comparable to that produced by a large nuclear generating station. Over a period of many minutes, this heat induces additional stresses on the damaged structural frames while simultaneously softening and weakening these frames.

Click for larger image

Damage inflicted by the impacts and the rapid movement of debris through the impacted floors has most likely impaired the sprinkler and fire standpipe systems, thus preventing the effective operation of both the manual and automatic fire-suppression systems. However, even without this damage these systems would have rapidly depressurized as a result of the opening of numerous sprinkler heads initiated by the flash fires of jet fuel, rendering them ineffective.

…

Subsequent review of aerial photographs of the site taken after the collapse, as well as subsequent identification of pieces of structural steel from WTC 2, strongly suggests that while the top portion of the tower fell to the south and east, striking Liberty Street and the Bankers Trust Building, the lower portion of the tower fell to the north and west, striking the Marriott Hotel (WTC 3). The debris pattern spread laterally up to 500 ft from the base of the structure.

. . .

At 10:28:31 A.M. EDT, WTC 1 begins to collapse. Future review of videotapes of the event will reveal that the television transmission tower on top of the structure began to move downward and laterally slightly before movement was evident at the exterior wall. This suggests that collapse began with one or more failures in the central core area of the building. This is consistent with the observations described of the debris patterns on the 91st floor. It will later be estimated that, prior to the impact from the aircraft, core columns were loaded to approximately 60 percent of their theoretical ultimate capacities. As some exterior and core columns were damaged upon impact, the outrigger trusses at the top of the building shifted additional loads to the remaining core columns, further eroding the available factor of safety against failure. This would have been particularly significant in the upper portion of the damaged building. In this region, the original design load for the core columns was less than at lower floors, and the column sections were relatively light. The increased stresses caused by the impact of the aircraft could easily have brought several of these columns close to their ultimate capacity, and thus relatively little additional effect from the fires would have been required to initiate the collapse.

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I am still looking for an unbiased account of the puddles of molten steel, But all I can find are conspiracy articles.

One thing, however, I believe that it took several months for them to excavate down to the basement level, yet how did they find thee puddles only one month after the collapse?

posted 10-02-2003 09:58 PM            

That was a great article. But you missed posting the very ending of it. It is in these questions and investigation areas that hold the secret. So why did the clean up crew get rid of all the evidence so quickly? Why can't anyone get blueprints of the buildings? Why won't the administration open up all files and all information to an investigation of 9/11? There are too many unanswered questions! Did you notice how many of the engineers theories were based on "observation" as well?

From your article:

The scope of this study was not without limits, and many issues should be explored before final conclusions are reached. Additional study of the performance of WTC 1 and WTC 2 during the events of September 11, 2001, is warranted, together with an investigation of related building performance issues. In any such studies attention should be given to the following points:

During the course of this study, it was not possible to determine the condition of the interior structure of the two towers after aircraft impact and before collapse. Detailed modeling of the aircraft impacts on each building should be conducted in order to better understand the probable damage state immediately following the impacts.
Preliminary studies of the growth of the fires and of their heat flux have been carried out. Although these studies provided useful insight into building behavior, they were not of sufficient detail to permit an understanding of the probable distribution of temperatures in the building as the fires progressed and of the resulting stress state of the structure. Detailed modeling of the fires should be continued and should be combined with structural modeling to develop a more detailed understanding of the likely failure models.
The floor framing system for the two towers was very complex and substantially more redundant and robust than typical joist-framed floor systems. Detailed modeling of these floor systems and their connections should be conducted to understand the effects of localized failures and overloads in the floor system and to identify likely ultimate failure modes for this system.
The performance during the fire of light steel trusses with spray-applied fire protection and the end restraint conditions typical of the towers is not well understood but is probably critical to the ultimate building failure. A study of the fire
performance of this structural system is definitely in order.
Observation of the structural damage to the towers and of their subsequent collapse suggests that the damage to floors reduced the lateral support provided to columns for structural stability. It is a typical design practice to specify three-hour fire protection and two-hour fire protection for floor members because a floor member failure may result in localized damage but a column failure will affect structural stability. A study should be conducted to determine appropriate levels of fireproofing for members or diaphragms that provide lateral support to column members.
Observation of the debris generated by the collapse and of damaged adjacent structures suggests that spray-applied fireproofing may be vulnerable to mechanical damage from blasts and impacts. This vulnerability is not well understood. Tests of spray-applied fireproofing materials should be conducted to understand their resistance to mechanical damage and to determine if it is appropriate and feasible to improve their resistance to such damage.
Tall buildings have occasionally been damaged in the past, typically by earthquakes, and have experienced partial collapse within the damaged zones. Those structures were able to arrest the collapse before it became total. The World Trade Center towers were also able to resist the initial impact of the aircraft without collapse, but they were unable to do this under the combined effects of fire, structural damage, and damage to fire protection systems. Studies should be conducted to determine whether, given the great size and weight of such buildings, there are feasible design and construction features that would arrest or limit a collapse.

Resources should be directed to airplane security rather than to hardening buildings against airplane impact.

posted 10-02-2003 10:18 PM            

My brother-in-law has built many large buldings and he is not convinced of the standard story. I'll try to get him to post, but he just had a shoulder operation, and is in no mood to argue with NWO apologists.

So. we will continue to look for articles to bolster our claims, but explain to me wolf, how a pristine passport of Atta's was found in the rubble of the WTC.

posted 10-02-2003 11:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by the professor:
But Swamp your my hero. You have all the socialistic answers I've been searching my whole life for. In fact I see first hand with your ideas put into place and at work within the realms of the California state government. Your people and philosphy are doing real good over there. Yep your model works allright, how to bring everybody down with you.

---

As yours in the one in Washington:

Liars
Stealers
Environmentally Destructive
Corporate friendly
People Hostile
Alcohol, Cocaine, and aspartame damaged p-Resident
War Crazed
Born-again Idiots
False Christians
Take money from Soldiers
Give money to rich
Leaks to press on CIA agent
Federal Crimes commited

Real good role model Professor

posted 10-03-2003 04:32 AM            

Some of you should get off the shrooms and acid. It's frying your brains.

OK. You think it has something to do with partisanship, huh? Well, I'd like to invite you guys onto another board and try to convince the liberals there about these 'crimes'. This is classic! Hell, why don't you just go public with it. Go ahead! Tell Howard Dean and Al Sharpton. How long do you think it will be before the men with white jackets come?

Let me try to get serious here (it's pretty difficult to do considering what I've read here). OK, can you please tell me exactly how the oxy-acetylene was used to make this building collapse? Given that I use this stuff several times per day, I can't imagine myself sitting in the basement cutting away a buildings support structure and hoping it doesn't fall on top of me in the meantime. Or were there some type of robots used? Yeah, that's the ticket. The idea that 'molten steel' would fall to the ground as the workers were cutting away the ruins (caused by the people some of you here are trying to excuse) sounds less realistic than the stories some of you are concocting in your minds, huh?

Let's not forget the videos broadcast internationally of Bin Laden praising his handy work. Remember, I live in Germany (a country opposed to the war). They also showed these videos. And Al Jazeera is in full cooperation with our government. Yeah, yeah! That's it!

Do you understand how many people would have to be involved in such a conspiracy? All haters of America and ruthless killers, they are. The risk that even one of them would open their mouths wouldn't be that great. No? Suicidal pilots anybody? We'll make your families rich! Don't you guys and gals realize how absurd this is?!?!?!

I don't want to insult anybody's intellingence. But, really....

quote:

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Larsen,
What does a quote on psychedic plants have anything to do with the discussion of demolition? I have followed your posts and know it is meant to attack Shatoga and his roots.

---

Hey Boomer Chick, how much do you know about Islam. I have a Koran sitting right here in front of me. I'd like to compare notes. My future wife (a Turkish Muslim) is also interested in some of your comments.

Swamp Gas, your absolutely correct! I'm not new to political boards, but I am to this one. You can read some of my postings at Ground Zero ezboard. I'm sure some of the libs there would be quite interested in what you have to say.

KNOW THIS-(I'm not sure what exactly) you forgot to say DUMYA, SHAWN (HELMET HEAD) HANNITY, RUMMY, RUSTY (LOUDMOUTH) LIMBAUGH,...etc..

posted 10-03-2003 07:14 AM            

SPRINKLER SYSTEMS-
Sprinkler systems are designed to operate with all sprinklers going off at once.
Systems are designed to protect each floor independent of floors above.
Building damage or collapse causes massive flooding.
Failure to protect a structure only occurs when the system is shut off, either manually or via loss of underground water supply.
The sprinkler systems at the WTC were worked on by plumbers just prior to 911.
Plumbers are not qualified to service sprinkler systems.

They would know how to shut off the system however.

I know this from 30 years of Taking yearly classes in NFPA-13 and working construction for many of those years.

Different construction materials react differently in fires.

Wood beams will burn, yet support the structural load until considerablely consumed.
Steel will soften, lose temper;
twist, bend, collapse like a wet noodle.
all the while tearing loose from welded clips and other attachments.
It will not collapse (telescope into itself) lengthways.
It will certainly bend long before reaching a molten state.

FIREPROOFING-
Fireproofing is merely a fire resistant insulation, applied to extend steel's resistance to heating.

I've scraped, wire brushed and ground fireproofing from columns and beams;
in order to weld on clips.
It doesn't just fall off,
although some will fall off when beaten with a hammer.

CONCRETE-
Any fool who has ever allowed an
oxy-acetlyene torch flame to heat concrete has seen concrete 'explode'.
This is caused by the heating of residual moisture.
(same thing that pops popcorn)

Building fires are like any other fire in that heat goes up.

Try lighting dry charcoal by laying lighter fluid soaked newspaper on top.

LOGIC FOR CONTROLLED DEMOLITION
The 1993 WTC bombing, got a lot of people thinking about the potential damage, if the tower had collapsed due to the bomb, or other causes.

Falling over would cause massive destruction.

emergency placement of FLSC
(flexible shaped liner charges)
Might have been a last resort solution.

When the top of one tower began to topple sideways
(as is normal)
Anguished civil defense officials could have made the tough decision:
To sacrifice those within the tower to save many more lives in the surrounding area.

Demolition of the 2nd tower would be the logical next step.

No conspiracy needed to believe in controlled demolition.

WTC-7 is an entirely different matter.

I am sceptical,
Yet wonder about Matt Drudge's pictures of a "missile" simultaneous with the 2nd tower impact.

Could the military have tried to shoot down the 2nd jet and missed?
(striking WTC-7 instead)

Again:
No conspiracy needed.

posted 10-03-2003 01:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by shatoga:
Trying to remember lots of posts.

SPRINKLER SYSTEMS-
Sprinkler systems are designed to operate with all sprinklers going off at once.
Systems are designed to protect each floor independent of floors above.

---

quote:

---

Building damage or collapse causes massive flooding.

---

Once the building collapsed, the fire pumps would have stopped.

quote:

---

Failure to protect a structure only occurs when the system is shut off, either manually or via loss of underground water supply.
The sprinkler systems at the WTC were worked on by plumbers just prior to 911.

---

quote:

---

Plumbers are not qualified to service sprinkler systems.

---

quote:

---

They would know how to shut off the system however.

---

quote:

---

I know this from 30 years of Taking yearly classes in NFPA-13 and working construction for many of those years.

Different construction materials react differently in fires.

Wood beams will burn, yet support the structural load until considerablely consumed.
Steel will soften, lose temper;
twist, bend, collapse like a wet noodle.
all the while tearing loose from welded clips and other attachments.

---

THANK YOU, that is exactly what I have been trying to say.

quote:

---

It will not collapse (telescope into itself) lengthways.
It will certainly bend long before reaching a molten state.

---

Do you mean like this?

Look at this and you will see that this scenario is not that different from what you have just stated
http://eagar.mit.edu/EagarPapers/Presentations/WTC_TMS_2002.pdf

quote:

---

FIREPROOFING-
Fireproofing is merely a fire resistant insulation, applied to extend steel's resistance to heating.

---

quote:

---

I've scraped, wire brushed and ground fireproofing from columns and beams;
in order to weld on clips.
It doesn't just fall off,
although some will fall off when beaten with a hammer.

---

Just an aside, don’t they usually spray the fireproofing on after they’ve welded on all of the clips?

quote:

---

CONCRETE-
Any fool who has ever allowed an
oxy-acetlyene torch flame to heat concrete has seen concrete 'explode'.
This is caused by the heating of residual moisture.
(same thing that pops popcorn)

Building fires are like any other fire in that heat goes up.

Try lighting dry charcoal by laying lighter fluid soaked newspaper on top.

---

Actually I think that it is reasonable to expect that some of the fire traveled downward as the spilled fuel poured down the shafts, and through the concrete floor damaged by the impact.

quote:

---

LOGIC FOR CONTROLLED DEMOLITION
The 1993 WTC bombing, got a lot of people thinking about the potential damage, if the tower had collapsed due to the bomb, or other causes.

Falling over would cause massive destruction.

emergency placement of FLSC
(flexible shaped liner charges)
Might have been a last resort solution.

---

quote:

---

When the top of one tower began to topple sideways
(as is normal)
Anguished civil defense officials could have made the tough decision:
To sacrifice those within the tower to save many more lives in the surrounding area.

Demolition of the 2nd tower would be the logical next step.

No conspiracy needed to believe in controlled demolition.

WTC-7 is an entirely different matter.

I am sceptical,
Yet wonder about Matt Drudge's pictures of a "missile" simultaneous with the 2nd tower impact.

Could the military have tried to shoot down the 2nd jet and missed?
(striking WTC-7 instead)

Again:
No conspiracy needed.

---