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  The looniest of all 9/11 conspiracy theories (Page 2)

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Topic:   The looniest of all 9/11 conspiracy theories

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Mech
Commitees of Correspondence


The Minuteman State
5934 posts, Jun 2001

posted 11-04-2003 11:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Halva...

I'm 90% sure Pacer is a Pilot simply by what he has said in these threads over the past year..I have no reason to doubt him on that.

You have to face up to the fact that some people simply BOUGHT the U.S. Government/Controlled medias story about Sept. 11th. That's their choice.


I'm simply wise enough now to know that most of what is on the controlled U.S. TV media is absolutely CIA controlled, oil soaked, fabricated LIES, LIES and more LIES.

The evidence is overwhelming. The U.S. government did it.

The evidence is voluminous.

http://www.infowars.com/sept11_archive.htm

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/archives/cat_911.html



[Edited 2 times, lastly by Mech on 11-04-2003]

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halva
Senior Member

Greece
377 posts, Apr 2003

posted 11-05-2003 12:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for halva   Visit halva's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I note the good word you are putting in for Pacer, Mech. He may come to need this kind of intervention on his behalf, from patriotic Americans who think members of the US armed forces have the right to be intellectually debilitated as long as they are not deliberate liars.



[Edited 2 times, lastly by halva on 11-05-2003]

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shatoga
Agent Provocateur


1080 posts, Nov 2002

posted 11-05-2003 12:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for shatoga     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In defence:

Pilots flew drugs out of SE Asia and into the USA and denied it under orders.

Pilots bombed civilians and denied it under orders.

It isn't easy to be a military person conflicted between the official lie you have been ordered to support,
and the truth that can get you court martialed or killed.

That, so many today,
post internet advocacy as a job,
and claim to be mere individuals is a proven fact.
(topic Web of Deceit)

Unfortunately, for individuals posting out of personal bias,
with earnest zeal, to support the same positions as those paid PR professionals;
gives many reason to dought their' veracity.

I'll support the view that our "pilot" probably is a pilot and is either sadly mistaken or under orders to cover up and deny the facts.

Unfortunately for success in THIS topic:

The Controlled demolitions were well photographed,
The stand down documented by both our dear (Cocaine Importing Agency)evil aunt cia
and by our insane uncle dod's official acknowledgment
that a simulation was being run on 911.

The scenario of an airplane crashing into the Pentagon.

(don't anyone insult your own intelligence by demanding the links be posted yet again for the nth time)

However,
granting that many people are willingly self-deluded.


For example Germans downwind of the camps brushed ashes off their suits
before going into church to hear pastors tell them how God was with Herr Hitler and the fight
"to preserve Western Christian civilization
against the onslaught of the Godless Communists and their allies."

Sounded better when Reagan repeated it, didn't it?

WTC demolition = proven.

Germans refused to believe the camps existed even when they had lived in the stench and smoke for years and seen the cattle cars full of moaning pleadin gJews parked on their railway sidings.

Neo-cons refuse to believe the testimony and photo evidence.

Same thing:
The desire to NOT believe.

Germans desired to NOT believe their rightwing anti-communist God and Country Leaders could burn their own Reichstag etc.
(a fraud to unite a nation behind their war plans)

Americans desire to NOT believe their rightwing anti-communist God and Country Leaders could attack their own nation.
(a fraud to unite a nation behind their war plans and prevent the release of the actual FL vote count)

Our advantage is we have the official acknowledgment that Operation Northwoods was planned by the Pentagon,
and that for generations they have bragged
they were capable of carrying out such a complex plan.

That Arabs who were incapable of flying a Cessna could fly huge commercial airplanes at high speed in tight manuvers with precision?
Ludicrous!

Truely the looniest of ALL conspiracy theories!


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swamp gas
Senior Member


Jersey City
1805 posts, Jun 2001

posted 11-05-2003 09:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for swamp gas   Visit swamp gas's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PacerLJ35:
So the only thing I know more about is flying a jet? That's presumptuous of you. I have 12 years of military experience, and yet you claim you know as much, if not more than I do about ATC procedures?

I hate to clue you in about this, but "flying a jet" involves a little more than being able to takeoff, turn, land and taxi the thing. You have to understand everything from how the national airspace system works, how air traffic control works, have a working knowledge of basic weather, and a whole host of things.

And no, I'm not "banking" on the uniform making me something "more" of a person. I am who I am. I'm a professional pilot, and an individual with 12 years of military experience ranging from an enlisted E-1 up to the officer I am today. The only thing I "bank" on with my military background is a little experience to back up what I say.

And I back "every" Bush policy? Since when? I play devil's advocate quite often, but I don't agree with everything Bush says or does. I don't think he's the best thing since sliced cheese. He's an average president, at best.

I back most of the Iraqi policies because there is no good in pulling out of there now. 300-400 soldiers would have died for absolutely nothing, and I'm for looking forward and moving on, not sitting around picking everything apart and hoping the mission fails.



Pacer,

Where did I say I know about ATC procedures? You may be privy to some flight protocol that I have never experienced, but your uniform does not give you any special insight into assimilating and analyzing the information from all sources.

You have said 250 times what you're qualifications and experience is. OK, good for you. I won't brag about the experience I've had in data acquisition, and involvement in psychological studies, or the Phd's and health studies I've been involved in. You know what, it all comes out in the wash, and what we type on these boards is what's important, not the pins and medals on our chests.

You have backed Bush up, going back 2 years. Anybody can search your threads. You say 300-400 soldiers will die for nothing if the US pulls out of Iraq now. I guess 10,000 "filthy, towelhead" innocent citizens do not matter, do they? In my opinion, you look at Arabs like the rest of the Neo-Cons do, standing in the way of their precious oil fields.

Face it, Pacer, the Bushies little game is getting exposed to the whole world, and now you call yourself a "Devil's advocate". Funny how right after 9/11, you were talking me down because I was critisizing the US policies, when it was unpopular to do so. Now that everyman and everywomyn is fed up with Bush, you are "Not backing up everything he says"........Ha!Ha! LOL! Reminds me of the people who were feverishly flying their little flags on every freaking car 2 years ago, but then silently removed them when nobody was looking, because the veil was removed from their eyes. Could your pride be preventing you from just coming out and admitting that BushLaden Productions tried to fool the world?

BTW, halva, are you saying that Pacer actually knows he's lying? Can't say for sure, other than the fact that he is adamant about protecting petrochemical and defense companies. Wait!!......JOB SECURITY.




[Edited 2 times, lastly by swamp gas on 11-05-2003]

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halva
Senior Member

Greece
377 posts, Apr 2003

posted 11-05-2003 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for halva   Visit halva's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Given that Pacer seems to be an intelligent man, the answer to me is self-evident.

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PacerLJ35
Senior Member

Millbrook, AL, USA
456 posts, Apr 2002

posted 11-05-2003 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PacerLJ35   Visit PacerLJ35's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Sigh"

Here we go again....accusations that Pacer is a "so-called pilot"...sounds familiar.

Here's a bet: Next time I fly into Hanscom, Mech, I'll let you know, and you can walk over and pretend to be some guy interested in the airplane and I'll give you a tour.

I have no need to lie about anything. As for what I've said before, I'll retract nothing because Halva's "analysis" took everything I said way out of context.

Like me saying that the DCANG and Marine Reserve squadrons aren't combat ready...I didn't say they weren't combat ready. I said their readiness posture is different from an actual fighter squadron sitting alert.

A squadron sitting alert has at least two fighters sitting at the end of the runway, fully armed and full of gas, already pre-flighted. There is a full crew sitting in an alert building near the jets, wearing flight suits, and they have their own truck to drive to the jets if they get alerted. All they need to do is get the call, get briefed, put on their speed jeans (g-suit), and drive to the jets, get in, start up and takeoff. Takes about 15 minutes.

On the other hand, the OTHER fighter units, including the DCANG and the Marine Reserve units, are fully combat ready, but not in an alert status. Their fighters are sitting on the ramp or in hangars, may or may not be fueled, and the pilots are either at work doing other duties, flying training missions, or at home (after all, you're talking about reserve pilots).

If they get a call to scramble, they have to go find a couple pilots, fuel the airplanes, put weapons on them, do full pre-flights, and taxi to the runway. You're talking a minimum of an hour or so, depending on the situational circumstances.

Anyways, I can sit here and debate all day long about the above posts, but I've got to get to bed tonight. Going shopping in Birmingham for my son's birthday present tomorrow.

One last thing, to swamp gas. I've never once claimed any medal I received lends to my credibility. Rather I lean on my 1600 hours and 8 years of flying experience, flying a wide range of various aircraft for a living. And the fact that I fly for the military only adds a different insight that a civilian pilot may not have (ie, the deal about alert posture versus "combat ready"). You seem to be very worried about my "pins and medals", but honestly I don't think I've ever mentioned any of my awards and decorations.

There's only two that I'm really proud of...Distinguished Graduate from pilot training class 01-12, and Honor Graduate from Army pilot training class 96-17. Which only lends more credibility to my background.

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halva
Senior Member

Greece
377 posts, Apr 2003

posted 11-05-2003 11:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for halva   Visit halva's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ï.Ê. Pacer, you haven't engaged with anything other than the accusation that you are not a pilot, but it's probably better for you that you don't. Go back to doing your job and forget about having opinions on very painful subjects.

Americans should be saying this to you, not me.

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Mech
Commitees of Correspondence


The Minuteman State
5934 posts, Jun 2001

posted 11-05-2003 11:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pacer...I said I was 90% sure you were a Pilot.

Don't get your panties in a wad.

It's your choice if you want to believe this government is corrupt and responsible for 9-11 or not...just remember many people DO.

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shatoga
Agent Provocateur


1080 posts, Nov 2002

posted 11-05-2003 11:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shatoga     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
edit...

[Edited 3 times, lastly by shatoga on 11-07-2003]

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swamp gas
Senior Member


Jersey City
1805 posts, Jun 2001

posted 11-05-2003 11:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swamp gas   Visit swamp gas's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pacer,

That's ALL you do is recite your qualifications. As I said, all that does is make you a better pilot, not a wiser or intelligent person, or give you special insight into truth. Most people here don't repeat their life experiences as much as you do, and believe me, we all have tales to tell, that would make you blush or jaw drop.If everyone used their lifes tests as qualifications, we'd have a lot of autobiographies. Our writing tells the story.

BTW, I am not WORRIED about pins and medals you have. If that makes you feel good, so be it, and I'm glad that you feel proud.

Let me ask you a question, Pacer. What brings you back to a board where the majority of people don't agree with you? Obviously, you are not impressing people with your qualifications, and your politics and livilihood are centered around and dependent on perpetual war. Or is there somewhere deep down inside that knows you are being lied to, and are no longer protecting The Constitution, but big business interests.

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halva
Senior Member

Greece
377 posts, Apr 2003

posted 11-06-2003 01:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for halva   Visit halva's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Big business interests" implies that big business has an interest in destroying the prerequisites for its own existence. Too soft, swampgas. We are surely challenging big business's assumption that it understands its "interests". Don't open the escape route for them that they are engaged in legitimate defence of their interests.
The stance of us merely defending our own "rights" is too weak.

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swamp gas
Senior Member


Jersey City
1805 posts, Jun 2001

posted 11-06-2003 08:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for swamp gas   Visit swamp gas's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Big Business interests will seek and consume wherever it can, disregarding national boundaries. If it destroys America financially, it figures it can go to China or India, as witnessed by the outsourcing of IT jobs as we speak.

At the bottom of these interests are religious fanaticism. This is the X factor, and gives another level of excuses for rampaging around the world. Business and God....Great combination for conquest..

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Mech
Commitees of Correspondence


The Minuteman State
5934 posts, Jun 2001

posted 11-06-2003 09:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Right on Swamp!!

People like the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, The Bush family, The Saxburg Gothas, The Windsors, The Harrimans and all the other global elitists could care less what system of government we are under as long as THEY profit...just like many of the SAME people who funded Hitlers regime before they got caught.Same people who fund dictators and death squads.Same people profitting from the iraq war, afgan war and homeland (REICHLAND) security contracts.



"Fascism should more properly be called 'corporatism,' since it is the marriage of government and corporate power."

BENITO MUSSOLINI

[Edited 4 times, lastly by Mech on 11-06-2003]

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gerard
New Member


2 posts, Nov 2003

posted 11-09-2003 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gerard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pacer has now confirmed himself as a deliberate liar. We are thus entitled to assume that everything posted by Pacer is a deliberate lie, unless appropriate documentation is provided to overrule this assumption. Here's why.
Pacwer wrote

[[The concept that hijackers would use airliners as missiles just wasn't considered. And as such, the military, NORAD and the FAA weren't prepared to counter such a plan. ]]

In response, I provided solid documentation that in fact the scenario had been actively envisioned and planned for. http://www.hermes-press.com/omens.htm http://www.emperors-clothes.com/indict/indict-3.htm

Because it was only fair to consider the possibility that Pacer may have made his statement in genuine error, I gave him the opportunity to retract his statement in the light of the documentation I provided, but warned that

" If it's not forthcoming then we are perfectly entitled to assume that everything Pacer has written is a lie unless proved otherwise "

(See the final post of page 1).

This was Pacer's response.

[[I'll retract nothing ]]

This confirms that Pacer is deliberately lying.

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Wolf_Larson
Senior Member


The Sea
420 posts, Aug 2003

posted 11-09-2003 09:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wolf_Larson   Visit Wolf_Larson's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I assume, Gerard, that you read the forum rules when you registered. I don't think your circular "proof" is sufficient to warrant calling anyone a "liar." Pacer has been here a lot longer than you have and as a newcomer, you should respect that until you get the "lay of the land" so to speak.

I am sure that there are people in the military whose sole job it is, is to dream up every crazy scenario under the sun and evaluate it for feasibility. That doesn't mean that these scenarios are passed along operationally.

Furthermore, As Pacer pointed out, you have two different groups, the military and a civilian air safety/ air traffic control. What ever in Gods green Earth makes you think that the communications between these two groups is seamless, flawless and complete?


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Mech
Commitees of Correspondence


The Minuteman State
5934 posts, Jun 2001

posted 11-09-2003 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WL: "-- What ever in Gods green Earth makes you think that the communications between these two groups is seamless, flawless and complete?--"


Proving time and time again...Wolf Larson thinks we are REALLY THAT STUPID.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 11-09-2003]

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halva
Senior Member

Greece
377 posts, Apr 2003

posted 11-09-2003 11:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for halva   Visit halva's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pacer may have been here a lot longer than Gerard, but all that he has done is air his obtuseness and boast about being a pilot. If he is so proud of being a pilot, let him be a pilot. He made the right decision if he has dropped out of this discussion.

It's probably a bad idea continuing to talk about him because it provides motivation for him to come back to 'defend his honour'.

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gerard
New Member


2 posts, Nov 2003

posted 11-09-2003 11:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gerard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let me repeat for those who can't read properly or can't rememeber back more than 2 posts.

This is what Pacer wrote.

[[The concept that hijackers would use airliners as missiles just wasn't considered. And as such, the military, NORAD and the FAA weren't prepared to counter such a plan. ]]

This is what Time magazine wrote in 1994.

"During the cold war, when security agents used to play war games involving terrorist threats to the White House, the one unsolvable problem was a commercial airliner loaded with explosives working its way into the landing pattern at Washington National Airport, then veering off for a suicide plunge into the White House."


This is how Pacer responded to the correction, when given the opportunity to retract.

[[I'll retract nothing]]

This is how the McQuarie Dictionary defines the word "lie"

" a false statement made with intent to decieve;an intentional untruth; a falsehood... something intended or serving to convey a false impression...to express what is false or convey a false impression.


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Wolf_Larson
Senior Member


The Sea
420 posts, Aug 2003

posted 11-10-2003 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wolf_Larson   Visit Wolf_Larson's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mech:
WL: "-- What ever in Gods green Earth makes you think that the communications between these two groups is seamless, flawless and complete?--"


Proving time and time again...Wolf Larson thinks we are REALLY THAT STUPID.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Mech on 11-09-2003]



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Mech
Commitees of Correspondence


The Minuteman State
5934 posts, Jun 2001

posted 11-10-2003 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mech   Visit Mech's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yep...Just as I suspected.

You are 100% Asleep.

Pity.

Baaaaaa says the sheep.

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ronnyb
New Member


1 posts, May 2004

posted 05-23-2004 11:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ronnyb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know this is an ancient thread, but this is the first time I've seen it. I can correct some misunderstanding about ATC radar systems though. I assume they are vastly improved since my discharge 4/1980. Even in those days they were quite capable of tracking large and small targets, without interference from ground clutter. The 60 mhz I.F. signal is processed through an enhancement process known as MTI, or Moving Target Indicator, the entire return signal from one main bang pulse is stored, and inverted 180deg,and phase compared to the next return. Out of phase signals are returned from moving targets, in phase (exactly 180 deg out of phase)from non moving targets. The in phase signals are cancelled, and the rest are sent to baseband and video processors. If an aircraft is not replying to the IFF interrogation, then it is the most noticeable target on the radar repeater, it will be the large painted target without IFF text information with it. The repeater also has capability to paint only IFF text, only radar return, or both. It's pretty darn easy to track the planes, plus all the video from the radar, and IFF gear is recorded on removable storage, and kept for 14 days. This provides post crash forensic data for evaluation by NTSB investigators, witnessed the post crash video review more than once myself. I was responsible for the repair and alignment of 2 types of radars, 60 mile air space, and 9 mile precision approach radar. They both had MTI capabilities, the 9 mile was pretty old fashioned, the I.F. was delayed by converting it to acoustic wave, and propagating it through a 181 microsecond delay line using mercury for the medium. The 60 mile used a digital delay line made of serial shift registers, tons of old ttl logic chips end to end, real gee whiz stuff in those days. The claim that a jumbo jet makes too small a signature to track against ground clutter is just ridiculous. The only non trackable planes, are the military jets designed to refract, absorb, and deflect radar signals, a real impressive accomplishment, since you have to get the cross sectional signature down to about the size of a softball to make it disappear.

Ref: Radar Handbook, Naval Research Laboratory, Mirrill I. Skolnik editor, this is the Radar bible, both old and new testament.

Ref: Radio Engineers Handbook, Wiley and Sons press

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shatoga
Agent Provocateur


1080 posts, Nov 2002

posted 06-14-2004 01:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for shatoga     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
bump

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snakelady
New Member



23 posts, Jun 2004

posted 06-14-2004 09:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for snakelady     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just my 2 cents.....It's odd that during some ufo sightings people report seeing military craft either nearby or following the object. Then on sept.11 all these plane's were flying around and not one military craft spotted anywhere?

Also, on a different subject, ever wonder why all this money is being spent going to mars to "look for other forms of life" When right here at home ufo's are being spotted evryday and the government lies about it. If they do find life up there they wouldn't tell us anyway. So, why are we going to mars? It makes no sense to me and i think is a huge waste of our money.
The government knows the REAL reason for going to mars and they aren's telling us!

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skizz
New Member


usa
32 posts, Jun 2004

posted 06-14-2004 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for skizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Boomer Chick:
The looniest of all 9/11 conspiracy theories

by Gerard Holmgren

Astute observers of history are aware that for every notable event there
will usually be at least one ,often several wild conspiracy theories which
spring up around it. "The CIA killed Hendrix"; "the Pope had John Lennon
murdered"; "Hitler was half Werewolf"; "Space aliens replaced Nixon with a
clone," etc, etc. The bigger the event, the more ridiculous and more
numerous are the fanciful rantings which circulate in relation to it.

So its hardly surprising that the events of Sept. 11, 2001, have spawned
their fair share of these ludicrous fairy tales. And as always, there is --
sadly -- a small but gullible percentage of the population eager to lap up
these tall tales, regardless of facts or rational analysis.

One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11 (and one that has
attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs) is that it
was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil
genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that
they "hate our freedoms."

Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this
cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and
unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the Internet
and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have
actually fallen under its spell.

Normally I don't even bother debunking this kind of junk, but the effect
that this paranoid myth is beginning to have requires a little rational
analysis, in order to consign it to the same rubbish bin as all such silly
conspiracy theories.

These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught
unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them and actually would
have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand down of
the U.S. Air Force, the insider trading on airline stocks (linked to the
CIA), the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the
controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon
and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the
attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about 19
Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer four planes simultaneously and
fly them around U.S. airspace for nearly two hours, crashing them into
important buildings, without the U.S. intelligence services having any idea
that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.

The daunting task of analysis

The huge difficulties with such a stupid story force them to invent even
more preposterous stories to distract from its core silliness, and thus the
tale has escalated into a mythic fantasy of truly gargantuan proportions.

It's difficult to apply rational analysis to such unmitigated stupidity, but
that is the task which I take on in this article. However, it should be
noted that one of the curious characteristics of conspiracy theorists is
that they effortlessly change their so called evidence in response to each
aspect which is debunked. As soon as one delusion is unmasked, they simply
invent another to replace it and deny that the first ever existed.
Eventually, when they have turned full circle through this endlessly
changing fantasy fog , they then reinvent the original delusion and deny
that you ever debunked it, thus beginning the circle once more. This
technique is known as "the fruit loop" and saves the conspiracy theorist
from ever having to see any of their ideas through to their (ill)logical
conclusions.

The fruit loop

According to the practitioners of the fruit loop, 19 Arabs took over the
four planes by subduing the passengers and crew through the use of guns,
knives, box cutters and gas, and then used electronic guidance systems which
they had smuggled on board to fly the planes to their targets.

The suspension of disbelief required for this outrageous concoction is only
for the hard core conspiracy theorist. For a start, they conveniently skip
over the awkward fact that there weren't any Arabs on the planes.

If there were, one must speculate that they somehow got on board without
being filmed by any of the security cameras and without being registered on
the passenger lists. But the curly question of how they are supposed to have
got on board is all too mundane for the exciting world of the conspiracy
theorist.

Who's on first?

With vague mumblings that they must have been using false ID (but never
specifying which IDs they are alleged to have used, or how these were traced
to their real identities), they quickly bypass this problem, to relate
exciting and sinister tales about how some of the fictitious fiends were
actually searched before boarding because they looked suspicious.

However, as inevitably happens with any web of lies, this simply paints them
into an even more difficult corner. How are they supposed to have gotten on
board with all that stuff if they were searched? And if they used gas in a
confined space, they would have been affected themselves unless they also
had masks in their luggage.

"Excuse me sir, why do you have a boxcutter, a gun, a container of gas, a
gas mask and an electronic guidance unit in your luggage?"

"A present for your grandmother? Very well sir, on you get."

"Very strange," thinks the security officer. "That's the fourth Arabic man
without an Arabic name who just got on board with a knife, gun or boxcutter
and gas mask. And why does that security camera keep flicking off every time
one these characters shows up? Must be one of those days I guess..."

Asking any of these basic questions to a conspiracy theorist is likely to
cause a sudden leap to the claim that we know that they were on board
because they left a credit card trail for the tickets they had purchased and
cars they had rented. So, if they used credit cards that identified them,
how does that reconcile with the claim that they used false IDs to get on to
the plane?

But by this time, the fruit loop is in full swing, as the conspiracy
theorist tries to stay one jump ahead of this annoying and awkward rational
analysis. They will allege that the hijackers' passports were found at the
crash scenes. "So there!" they exalt triumphantly, their fanatical faces
lighting up with that deranged look of one who has just experienced a
revelation of questionable sanity.

Hmm? So they got on board with false IDs but took their real passports with
them? However, by this time the fruit loop has been completely
circumnavigated, and the conspiracy theorist exclaims impatiently, "Who said
anything about false IDs? We know what seats they were sitting in! Their
presence is well documented!"

And so the whole loop starts again. "Well, why aren't they on the passenger
lists?"

"You numbskull! They assumed the identities of other passengers!" And so
on...

Finally, out of sheer fascination with this circular method of creative
delusion, the rational sceptic will allow them to get away with this loop,
in order to move on to the next question, and see what further delights
await us in the unraveling of this marvelously stupid story.

"Uh, how come their passports survived fiery crashes that completely
incinerated the planes and all the passengers?"

The answer of course is that its just one of those strange coincidences,
those little quirks of fate that do happen from time to time. You know, like
the same person winning the lottery four weeks in a row. The odds are
astronomical, but these things do happen...

This is another favourite deductive method of the conspiracy theorist. The
"improbability drive," in which they decide upon a conclusion without any
evidence whatsoever to support it, and then continually speculate a series
of wildly improbable events and unbelievable coincidences to support it,
shrugging off the implausibility of each event with the vague assertion that
sometimes the impossible happens (just about all the time in their world).

There is a principle called "Occam's razor" which suggests that in the
absence of evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation is most likely
to be correct. Conspiracy theorists hate Occam's razor.

Hijacking 101

Having for the sake of amusement, allowed them to get away with the silly
story of the 19 invisible Arabs, we move on to the question of how they are
supposed to have taken over the planes.

Hijacking a plane is not an easy thing to do. Hijacking it without the pilot
being able to alert ground control is nearly impossible. The pilot has only
to punch in a four digit code to alert ground control to a hijacking.
Unconcerned with the awkward question of plausibility, the conspiracy buffs
maintain that on that Sept 11, the invisible hijackers took over the plane
by the rather crude method of threatening people with boxcutters and knives,
and spraying gas (after they had attached their masks, obviously), but
somehow took control of the plane without the crew first getting a chance to
punch in the hijacking code. Not just on one plane, but on all four. At this
point in the tale, the conspiracy theorist is again forced to call upon the
services of the improbability drive.

So now that our incredibly lucky hijackers have taken control of the planes,
all four pilots fly them with breathtaking skill and certainty to their
fiery end -- all four unflinching in their steely resolve for a swift
meeting with Allah.

Apart from their psychotic hatred of "our freedoms," it was their fanatical
devotion to Islam which enabled them to summon up the iron will to do this.
Which is strange, because according to another piece of hearsay peddled by
the conspiracy buffs, these guys actually went out drinking and womanizing
the night before their great martyrdom, even leaving their Korans in the
bar -- really impeccable Islamic behavior -- and then got up at 5 a.m. the
next morning to pull off the greatest covert operation in history.

This also requires us to believe that they were even clear headed enough to
learn how to fly the huge planes by reading flight manuals in Arabic in the
car on the way to the airport. We know this because they supposedly left the
flight manuals there for us to find.

It gets better. Their practical training had allegedly been limited to
Cessnas and flight simulators, but this was no barrier to the unflinching
certainty with which they took over the planes and skillfully guided them to
their doom.

If they are supposed to have done their flight training with these tools,
which would be available just about anywhere in the world, its not clear why
they would have decided to risk blowing their cover to U.S. intelligence
services by doing the training in Florida, rather than somewhere in the
Middle East, but such reasoning is foreign to the foggy world of the
conspiracy theorist, too trapped in the constant rotation of the mental
fruit loop to make their unsubstantiated fabrications seem even
semi-believable.

A Ryder truck with wings?

Having triumphantly established a circular delusion in support of the
mythical Arabs, the conspiracy theorist now confronts the difficult question
of why there's nothing left of the planes. Anybody who has seen the
endlessly replayed footage of the second plane going into the WTC will
realize that the plane was packed with explosives. Planes do not and cannot
blow up into nothing in that manner when they crash.

Did the mythical Arabs also haul a huge heap of explosives on board, and
manage to deploy them in such a manner that they went off in the exact
instant of the crash, completely vapourizing the plane?

This is a little difficult even for the conspiracy theorist, who at this
point decides that its easier to invent new laws of physics in order to keep
the delusion rolling along.

There weren't any explosives. It wasn't an inside job. The plane blew up
into nothing from its exploding fuel load! Remarkable!

Sluggishly combustible jet fuel, which is basically kerosene and which burns
at a maximum temperature of around 800 C, has suddenly taken on the
qualities of a ferociously explosive demolition agent, vapourizing 65 tons
of aircraft into a puff of smoke. Never mind that a plane of that size
contains around 15 tons of steel and titanium, of which even the melting
points are about double that of the maximum combustion temperature of
kerosene -- let alone the boiling point -- which is what would be required
to vapourize a plane. And then there's about 50 tons of aluminium to be
accounted for.

In excess of 15 pounds of metal was vapourized for each gallon of kerosene.

For the conspiracy theorist, such inconvenient facts are vaguely dismissed
as "mumbo jumbo."

This convenient little phrase is their answer to just about anything factual
or logical. Like a conjurer pulling a rabbit out of a hat, they suddenly
become fanatically insistent about the devastating explosive qualities of
kerosene, something hitherto completely unknown to science, but just
discovered by them, at that very moment. Blissfully ignoring the fact that
never before or since in aviation history has a plane vapourized into
nothing from an exploding fuel load, the conspiracy theorist relies upon
Hollywood images, where the effects are always larger than life, and
certainly larger than the intellects of these cretins.

"Its a well known fact that planes blow up into nothing on impact," they
state with pompous certainty. "Watch any Bruce Willis movie."

"Care to provide any documented examples? If it's a well known fact, then
presumably this well known fact springs from some kind of documentation --
other than Bruce Willis movies?"

At this point the mad but cunning eyes of the conspiracy theorist will
narrow as they sense the corner that they have backed themselves into, and
plan their escape by means of another stunning backflip.

"Ah, but planes have never crashed into buildings before, so there's no way
of telling," they counter with a sly grin.

Well, actually planes have crashed into buildings before (and since). None
of them vapourized into almost nothing.

"But not big planes, with that much fuel," they shriek in hysterical denial.

Or that much metal to vapourize.

"Yes but not hijacked planes!"

"Are you suggesting that whether the crash is deliberate or accidental
affects the combustion qualities of the fuel?"

"Now you're just being silly."

Although collisions with buildings are rare, planes frequently crash into
mountains, streets, other aircraft, nosedive into the ground, or have bombs
planted aboard them, and don't vapourize into nothing. What's so special
about a tower that's mostly glass? But by now, the conspiracy theorist has
once again sailed happily around the fruit loop. "Its a well documented fact
that planes explode into nothing on impact."

Effortlessly weaving back and forth between the position that its a "well
known fact" and that "its never happened before, so we have nothing to
compare it to," the conspiracy theorist has now convinced themselves (if not
too many other people) that the WTC plane was not loaded with explosives,
and that the instant vapourization of the plane in a massive fireball was
the same as any other plane crash you might care to mention. Round and round
the fruit loop...

The "new math"

But the hurdles which confront the conspiracy theorist are many, and they
are now forced to implement even more creative uses for the newly discovered
shockingly destructive qualities of kerosene. They have to explain how the
Arabs also engineered the elegant vertical collapse of both the WTC towers,
and for this awkward fact the easiest counter is to simply deny that it was
a controlled demolition, and claim that the buildings collapsed from fire
caused by the burning kerosene.

For this, its necessary to sweep aside the second law of thermodynamics and
propose kerosene, which is not only impossibly destructive, but also
recycles itself for a second burning in violation of the law of degradation
of energy.

You see, it not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball,
vapourizing a 65-ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go,
burning at 2000 degrees C for another hour at the impact point, melting the
skyscraper's steel like butter. And, while it was doing all this, it also
poured down the elevator shafts, starting fires all through the building.

When I was at school there was a little thing called the entropy law which
suggests that a given portion of fuel can only burn once, something which is
readily observable in the real world, even for those who didn't make it to
junior high school science. But this is no problem for the conspiracy
theorist. Gleefully, they claim that a few thousand gallons of kerosene is
enough to:

1. completely vapourize a 65 ton aircraft;

2. have enough left over to burn ferociously enough for over an hour at the
impact point to melt steel ( melting point about double the maximum
combustion temperature of the fuel );

3. still have enough left over to pour down the elevator shafts and start
similarly destructive fires all throughout the building.

This kerosene really is remarkable stuff! How chilling to realize that those
kerosene heaters we had in the house when I was a kid were deadly bombs,
just waiting to go off. One false move and the entire street might have been
vapourized. And never again will I take kerosene lamps out camping. One
moment you're there innocently holding the lamp, the next moment -- kapow!
Vapourized into nothing along with the rest of the camp site, and still
leaving enough of the deadly stuff to start a massive forest fire.

These whackos are actually claiming that the raging inferno allegedly
created by the miraculously recycling, and impossibly hot burning kerosene
melted or at least softened the steel supports of the skyscraper. Oblivious
to the fact that the smoke coming from the WTC was black, which indicates an
oxygen starved fire and, therefore, not particularly hot, they trumpet an
alleged temperature in the building of 2000 C , without a shred of evidence
to support this curious suspension of the laws of physics.

Not content with this ludicrous garbage, they then contend that as the steel
frames softened, they came straight down instead of buckling and twisting
and falling sideways.

Laws be damned

Since they've already re-engineered the combustion qualities of jet fuel,
violated the second law of thermodynamics, and redefined the structural
properties of steel, why let a little thing like the laws of gravity get in
the way?

The tower fell in a time almost identical to that of a free-falling object,
dropped from that height, meaning that it's physically impossible for it to
have collapsed by the method of the top floors smashing through the lower
floors.

But, according to the conspiracy theorists, the laws of gravity were
temporarily suspended on the morning of Sept 11. It appears that the evil
psychic power of those dreadful Arabs knew no bounds. Even after they were
dead, they were able, by the power of their evil spirits, to force down the
tower at a speed physically impossible under the laws of gravity, had it
been meeting any resistance from fireproofed steel structures originally
designed to resist many tons of hurricane force wind -- as well as the
impact of a Boeing passenger jet straying off course.

Clearly, these conspiracy nuts never did their science homework at school,
but did become extremely adept at inventing tall tales for why they couldn't
complete their assignments.

"Muslim terrorists stole my notes, sir"

"No miss, the kerosene heater blew up and vapourized everything in the
street, except for my passport."

"You see sir, the school bus was hijacked by Arabs who destroyed my homework
because they hate our freedoms."

Or perhaps they misunderstood the term "creative science" and mistakenly
thought that coming up with such rubbish was in fact, their science
homework.

The ferocious heat generated by this ghastly kerosene was, according to the
conspiracy theorists, the reason why so many of the WTC victims can't be
identified. DNA is destroyed by heat. (Although 2000 C isn't really
required, 100 degrees C will generally do the job).

This is quite remarkable, because according to the conspiracy theorist, the
nature of DNA suddenly changes if you go to a different city.

Not all DNA created equal

That's right! If you are killed by an Arab terrorist in NY, your DNA will be
destroyed by such temperatures. But if you are killed by an Arab terrorist
in Washington DC, your DNA will be so robust that it can survive
temperatures which completely vapourize a 65-ton aircraft.

You see, these loonies have somehow concocted the idea that the missile
which hit the pentagon was not a missile at all, but one of the hijacked
planes. And to prove this unlikely premise, they point to a propaganda
statement from the Bush regime, which rather stupidly claims that all but
one of the people aboard the plane were identified from the site by DNA
testing, even though nothing remains of the plane.

"The plane was vapourized by the fuel tank explosion," maintain these space
loonies, but only one of the people inside it were not identified by DNA
testing.

So there we have it. The qualities of DNA are different, depending upon
which city you're in, or perhaps depending upon which fairy story you're
trying to sell at any particular time.

Missiles have wings, too

This concoction about one of the hijacked planes hitting the Pentagon really
is a howler. For those not familiar with the layout of the Pentagon, it
consists of five rings of building, each with a space in between. Each ring
of building is about 30 to 35 feet deep, with a similar amount of open space
between it and the next ring.

The object which penetrated the Pentagon went in at about a 45 degree angle,
punching a neat, circular hole about 12 feet in diameter through three rings
(six walls).

A little later a section of wall about 65 feet wide collapsed in the outer
ring. Since the plane, which the conspiracy theorists claim to be
responsible for the impact, had a wing span of 125 feet and a length of 155
feet and there was no wreckage of the plane, either inside or outside the
building, and the lawns outside were still smooth and green enough to play
golf on, this crazy delusion is clearly a physical impossibility.

But hey, we've already disregarded the combustion qualities of jet fuel, the
normal properties of common building materials, the properties of DNA, the
laws of gravity and the second law of thermodynamics, so what the hell --
why not throw in a little spatial impossibility as well?

I would have thought that the observation that a solid object cannot pass
through another solid object without leaving a hole at least as big as
itself is reasonably sound science. But to the conspiracy theorist, this is
"mumbo jumbo." It conflicts with the delusion that they're hooked on, so it
"must be wrong" although trying to get them to explain exactly how it could
be wrong is a futile endeavour.

Conspiracy theorists fly into a curious panic whenever the Pentagon missile
is mentioned. They nervously maintain that the plane was vapourized by it's
exploding fuel load and point to the WTC crash as evidence of this behavior
(That is a wonderful fruit loop).

Like an insect which has just been sprayed, running back and forth in its
last mad death throes, they first argue that the reason the hole is so small
is that the plane never entered the wall, having blown up outside, and then
suddenly backflip to explain the 250 feet deep missile hole by saying that
the plane disappeared all the way into the building, and then blew up inside
the building (even though the building shows no sign of such damage).

As for what happened to the wings, here's where they get really creative.
The wings snapped off and folded into the fuselage which then carried them
into the building, which then closed up behind the plane like a piece of
meat.

When it suits them, they'll also claim that the plane slid in on its belly,
(ignoring the undamaged lawn) while at the same time citing alleged
witnesses to the plane diving steeply into the building from an
"irrecoverable angle."

How they reconcile these two scenarios as being compatible is truly a study
in applied stupidity.

Epilogue

Once they get desperate enough, you can be sure that the UFO conspiracy
stuff will make an appearance. The Arabs are in league with the Martians.
Space aliens snatched the remains of the Pentagon plane and fixed most of
the hole in the wall, just to confuse people. They gave the Arabs
invisibility pills to help get them onto the planes. Little green men were
seen talking to Bin Laden a few weeks prior to the attacks.

As the nation gears up to impeach the traitor Bush, and stop his perpetual
oil war, it's not helpful to have these idiots distracting from the process
by spreading silly conspiracy theories about mythical Arabs, stories which
do nothing but play into the hands of the extremist Bush regime.

At a less serious time, we might tolerate such crackpots with amused
detachment, but they need to understand that the treachery that was
perpetrated on Sept. 11, and the subsequent war crimes committed in
"retaliation" are far too serious for us to allow such frivolous self
indulgence to go unchallenged.

Those who are truly addicted to conspiracy delusions should find a more
appropriate outlet for their paranoia.

Its time to stop loony conspiracy theories about Sept 11.

Copyright Gerard Holmgren. Jan 2003 debunker@h...



got to reading your post at work so once i got home and started browsing and came upon this site.it's very interesting. don't know if it's been here before but thought i would share it anyway. http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/physics_1.html

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Orwell knew
Senior Member


Mid-Missouri
37 posts, May 2004

posted 06-14-2004 07:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Orwell knew     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Shatoga,

I must say your summary of events is quite compelling. I too feel there MUST have been a Stand Down order given or something done to PREVENT planes from being scrambled.

I do not know of the accuracy of the report but somewhere I had read that there was a decision made months prior to 9-11 that took away the power of localities to scramble aircraft and put it instead in the hands of Rumsfeld. Therefore it was reported that when he failed to give any orders that day to go up, nothing was of course done until obviously too late. I cannot vouch for the validity of that report but perhaps others have seen similiar.

That Ashcroft stopped flying "commercial" flights just prior to 9-11 seems certain although it seems he has said that was only for "business reasons".

I think you and others make the point beyond reasonable dispute that the 'hi-jacked" planes could have been (and were)easily picked up on radar (even simple radar systems as you claim much less Fed systems)could have done the job. And the point by others that they couldn't have been distinguished from the other 100-200 planes 'in the vicinity' seems rediculous being as one has to ask "how many other commercial jets on radar are flying around at that time with no transponder?"

REally I guess I am just being polite. I can't really hardly find ANYTHING about this whole 9-11 SCAM that I think is credible. In fact I think this has been one of the biggest if not the biggest attempts to 'frame' falsely an entirely different group of people than the REAL 'masterminds' that has ever been enacted upon the American people and The World. And as I said before as the toothe paste continues to ooze from the tube with no way to put it back the REALLY dangerous murderous Cabal that is behind 9-11 is getting VERY nervous and therefore like a cornered wild animal may lash out in horrific rage.

I understand both Cheney and Bush have hired personal lawyers as regards "apparently" this coverup of the CIA operative. It will be interesting to see how long they can keep the lies coming and the deck of cards from collapsing.

SmT

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