posted 01-20-2004 03:09 PM            

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
Are you a wet back btw?

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A wetback??? If I were, that would be about as insulting as asking a black if he was a nigger! Wow, been awhile since I've seen such a potentially offensive sentence.

posted 01-20-2004 03:09 PM            

KNOW-THIS nobly concedes to the possibility of misconception!

All is well!

posted 01-20-2004 06:26 PM            

"Hispanic gangs forming on the East Coast during the mid and late 1990s have undergone a metamorphosis from unsophisticated loose knit social cliques to violent street gangs with strengthening alliances.

These gangs are largely Border Brothers gangs. In Spanish, the Border Brothers are called “Hermanos de la Frontera.” Border Brothers are usually illegal immigrants from the same region in Mexico or those who have illegally entered the United States at the same time. These Border Brothers have formed together for social functions and protection. After a short time, they operate like any other gangs."

posted 01-20-2004 06:31 PM            

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
I mean, that's just the word that was used to describe the deportation of illegal immigrants in the 50's. I didn't coin the term, blame history for that one.

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So if you call someone a nigger today they shouldn't blame you, they should blame history? You go ahead and try that in East L.A. and see if that logic flies. Both nigger and wetback are currently offensive terms for the people they are targeted at.

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It was known as "Operation Wetback". And as far as I'm concerned, it applies to anyone of any descent residing in this country illegally.

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The definition of "wetback" is: "NOUN: Offensive Slang, Used as a disparaging term for a Mexican, especially a laborer who crosses the U.S. border illegally."

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Based on the reactions of US citizens responding to Bush's amnesty for aliens, most would agree that these people are a detriment to our society.

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posted 01-20-2004 07:20 PM               

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
I did apologize, but I didn't make that mistake until that person provoked me first. Let's atleast keep the overall context.

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Maybe I missed something, maybe it was in another thread...

posted 01-20-2004 07:50 PM            

overcrowded and under-funded schools
diseases
increased health care costs
degraded health care service
higher auto insurance premiums
poverty
lawlessness
social conflict
over-population
unemployment
lowered wages
vote fraud
increased crime
illegal drugs
environmental degradation
depletion of natural resources
loss of common language and culture
increased traffic congestion
higher taxes

posted 01-20-2004 07:55 PM            

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
So Lexta, what do you say we throw a big celebration for all of the violent drug dealing gang members that have came here illegally from Mexico?

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That would be pretty silly, wouldn't it?

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You know, the one's that murder people for fun as well as gang initiations and display blatant disregard for our laws & society.

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Kind of like Americans that do about the same thing?

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Those are the people I was describing and I've made that abundantly clear.

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Even if a black person killed a white person, I wouldn't call him a nigger. I'd call him a murderer.

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And to answer the other question, this is the type of antagonism that caused the flare up to begin with. Lexta has the innate ability...

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Funny, I hadn't even seen your "wetback" post until people started calling you racist at which time I went back to see why. I was surprised to find the remark was actually directed at me.

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Why don't you invite them over to your own home some night? You wouldn't dare would you?

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What, have an illegal over to stay the night at my home? 10 years ago I dated one (an illegal alien). She was very nice, didn't kill anyone, and didn't do or sell drugs, and on a couple of ocassions did stay over in my parents home. She had some neighbors that were also illegal aliens and they didn't do any of those things either. We (my parents, my brother and sister, and I) had them all over for Christmas dinner in 1994. No-one got stabbed or killed that Christmas.

posted 01-20-2004 08:00 PM            

"I'm not Mexican, but if I illegally entered the U.S. by crossing the Rio Grande river, I would be a wetback too. There goes the "racist" angle. Plus, "Mexican" is no more a race than "American" is."

The connotation that I apply to the word is not racist. You are just trying so desperately to paint that picture. You have your interpretation, I have mine.

posted 01-20-2004 08:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
[B]Some of the negative impacts of illegal immigration follow.
overcrowded and under-funded schools

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This is true with or without illegal immigration.

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diseases

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Can you provide links showing that illegal aliens are bringing any diseases to the U.S. that are any more dangerous than the ones we already have? Like AIDS?

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increased health care costs

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In some locations, yes. But somewhat offset by taxes they pay (see below).

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degraded health care service

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How so? Please provide evidence.

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higher auto insurance premiums

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How so? Please provide evidence.

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poverty

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How so? Please provide evidence.

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lawlessness

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How so? Please provide evidence.

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social conflict

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How so? Please provide evidence.

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over-population

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Our country has plenty of room and plenty of resources for everyone in the country and has plenty of room to grow.

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unemployment

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How so? The jobs they take are usually jobs that most Americans don't want. It's not like illegal aliens come in and take high-paying rocket science jobs. At worst, they cause more unemployment among adolescents looking for jobs at McDonalds or picking crops... and those adolescents hopefully go and get an education.

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lowered wages

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How so? They take minimum wage jobs... and the minimum wage is bumped up by the Federal Government every few years so I don't see how they can lower wages.

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vote fraud

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How so? Or, more specifically, how so any more than any other person in the country can participate in vote fraud?

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increased crime

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How so? Please provide evidence.

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illegal drugs

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That's a laugh. There'll be plenty of illegal drugs for Americans whether or not illegal aliens are here.

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environmental degradation

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What, you mean from them walking across the desert in Arizona? Or what are you talking about?

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depletion of natural resources

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How so? Please provide evidence.

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loss of common language and culture

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So? I mean, I'm in favor of people speaking English in the U.S. and I might go so far as to even approve of a law that lets Mexicans legally move to the U.S. if they have a high school education AND prove they speak English. But a common culture? Since when did the U.S. have a common culture? Certainly not since around the late 1800's...

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increased traffic congestion

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Heheh, yeah, because of all those cars that those poor, uninsured illegals drive. Come on...

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higher taxes

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That's just wrong. A large percentage of these people pay taxes and never file a return for a refund, nor do they request governemnt services such as unemployment since they are, in fact, here illegally. We certainly don't pay higher taxes because of them.

posted 01-20-2004 08:14 PM            

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Originally posted by zoobie555:
Maybe the moderators can create a new Forum sub-category called "Pissing Contest" and that might free up the "Other trails" section for something not related to a testosterone fueled "am not/are to" childs argument.

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Zoob,

Follow this thread from the beginning:

posted 01-20-2004 09:22 PM            

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
And since we have americans that do it, we should open our borders wide for people that show statistical prominence for the same negativity.

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No, I already said we shouldn't open our borders wide to illegals. Those that want to move here should follow the law.

That said, I'd like to see your source that says that illegal aliens are statistically more likely to commit any of these crimes than a similar American of the same income and race.

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How about this, you prove that it isn't true.

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That's silly. You made the claim, back it up. I'm just questioning it.

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And am I such a terrible person to think that they should have to become legal citizens the way the rest of us did to become permanent residents.

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No, you're not. And I agree that they should become legal citizens in the way prescribed by law.

But your racial or nationalist slur (wetback) is pretty low. And your bigotedness (is that a word?) inasmuch as your negative preconception of those that want to live here--even illegally--is quite obvious based on all the evils you seem to associate with them but haven't provided any justification.

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Do you really feel comfortable about the idea of intentionally allowing untraceable people to run rampant as they please?

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No, I don't feel comfortable letting illegals in. I would, however, prefer to un untraceable myself and I think I have that right to privacy as do other citizens. I'm not sure if that's a double standard or not since the Constitution conveys rights to everyone, illegal or not.

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Besides, I apologized already, what more do you people want from me?

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I really don't care if you apologize or not. I'm not Mexican, I'm not an illegal, and thus your comment was just out of place rather than being offensive (although my Mexican wife probably would have been offended if she followed this thread).

posted 01-20-2004 10:10 PM            

"I officially apologize to Lexta for that much."

posted 01-20-2004 10:32 PM            

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
[B] Well, this was my apology in the "Mech ought to love this thread". "I officially apologize to Lexta for that much."

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Ok, I see it now. I stopped following that thread when it became a total flame fest talking about Marilyn Manson and what not. And I would have thought the apology would have been in the thread where the offense was committed, but no problem. I see where you apologized and it didn't really matter to me personally anyway--I just thought I saw you saying you had apologized when I hadn't seen it and thought I'd take you to task on that. My bad.

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Also, if I'm just making all of this up, why is it that the majority of americans are in an uproar over Bush's recent proposal? Do you doubt their judgment? They must have reasonable fears based on their reactions.

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I'd like to believe they have reasonable fears based on their reactions. But people are accepting the governments intrusions on their liberty and freedom in its attempt to secure them from terrorism, too, and I think we'd agree that that's probably not good judgement on the part of the American public.

Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's right, and just because something is right doesn't mean it will be popular.

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But lets use some common sense. Where do you figure most of the predominantly Mexican gang members come from in California? Do they arrive on spaceships from Mars? Maybe they suddenly materialize from an alternate dimension?

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I don't have statistics for latino gang members in California. Certainly some are illegal aliens. Cerainly some were born in the U.S. and are American citizens. Do you have numbers that support your claim that most latino gang members are, in fact, illegal?

Even so, I don't think being a member of a gang is itself illegal, is it? (Maybe it is now, I really don't know). But I'd be more interested in knowing whether illegal aliens actually commit more crime (murders, assault, robbery, etc.) than similar Americans.

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How do you trace an anonymous figure for a crime when there is no record of that person on file?

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Good point. If anything that would lend credibility to what Bush proposed this evening in his State of the Union speech. At least if you give them temporary work permits they are no longer anonymous figures. They're here anyway, under Bush's plan at least we'll know who and where they are.

Perhaps it's not such a bad idea after all, is it?

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I'd be saying the same about Canadians if it were an issue but to my knowledge it's not.

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And to my knowledge, you haven't proved that your preconceptions about Mexican illegals is an issue. You have made your statements but, lacking information to back it up, it really does come across as bigoted more than informed concern.

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I wish I had not used the stupid word, I've said that. Are you perfect?

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No, I'm not perfect. But I'm almost entirely sure that I have never uttered a racist remark in my life... and certainly not to someone that could be offended by it (i.e., it's one thing to share a joke among known friends, quite another to shout 'Any wetbacks in here?' in a crowded theater).

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Also, I'm sure your wife is a wonderful person. If she isn't already a U.S. citizen, I would welcome her with open arms to become one. But to do so in the correct manner for obvious reasons.

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Great and, interestingly enough, she agrees with you 100%. She thinks it is completely wrong for her fellow Mexicans to go to the U.S. illegally.

But even so it is embarassing to me when Mexicans hear of mistreatment and racism against them in the U.S. Just because they're breaking a long doesn't mean its our right to violate their human rights or, in my opinion, does it mean they should be subjected to racist name-calling. Send them to jail and deport them. But do it with dignity and, by doing so, we will retain our own dignity.

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Sure you have a right to privacy. But we all have a right to a fair system of justice. Which is ultimately udermined by overt illegal activity of any kind.

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