posted 01-22-2004 03:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by HatchetML:
BC, not only feel it but i live in a state that is over-run with illegals, you couldnt have said it any better, although i have to tell myself dont jump to conclusions.IF Bush or whoever passes the free illegal pass im pretty sure you will start to see a rise in KKK type clans again, one things for sure we as americans when pushed to the limit will fight for our rights.

Simple solution, seal the southern border, sure that will cost us alot of money we may not have, but I for one would pay a higher tax if thats what it takes, id also pay a higher tax on everything for the chance at free health care.The worlds most advanced country in the world, its health care system is that of third world countries, not much better, i have a buddy in and around toronto, they have free health care but like he told me, if you need an MRI there it might take 2 weeks to 2 months to get your MRI, whereas here it happens usually the same day or the following day.

Legalize cannibas and in 2 years the money from that new enterprise would pay for alot of things this country is lacking, but as long as monsanto and Dupont are around this will never ever happen.

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I agree with you on all! I also think that if heroine was legalized and controlled, although the black market wouldn't go away, at least we could tax the user and funnel them into rehabs. and get legimate capitalism going in that field (no pun intended). Let govt. regulate the prices and keep them down so the drug addicted won't commit petty crimes that fill the prisons to overflowing because of their addictions-- which drains state taxpayer coffers. The government supported the heroine traffic so why not, as a taxpayer, support the control of the rehab. and selling? Let private small business sell grass, too! They already do, so why not tax it and get some support for the heavier drug rehab? Like alchohol, grass especially should be legalized!

Yes, and tighten all the borders, not loosen them! Make all immigrants accountable and put stipulations, like Canada and Australia does, on all entering future citizens as able to contribute to society! Workers can come over, but not at the expense of American workers!

I would think that "minorities," which are becoming majorities, however, would not contribute to racism! I don't see the rise in KKK as an offshoot! Just one little disagreement here! IMHO!

Letxa has every right to state his view of Mexico as he lives there!

I happen to like the Latino people very much! I was raised in the Santa Clara Valley, CA, and lived here in Colorado for over 27 years, and I find the culture and religious values of Latinos quite positive. Of course they aren't in the majority in either area, but as a culture, I like them! Your experience could be totally different and I respect that. Gangs are another animal quite different from the respectable people I've seen. And no cultural group is excluded from gang membership! Whites, Blacks, Latinos, and even Asians form gangs, especially in the crowded inner cities and LA areas and probably in many smaller communities. It's, at the heart, the irresponsiblity of fathers that comes into play in the formation of male gangs!

And I love America! I love diversity, too!

But let's keep our borders secure from an influx of lower level workers, although paying taxes, will flood our worker pool and push more Americans out of jobs. The example I would give you on that happening right now, is in California. The Bay Area is now overrun with Asians and they're having a problem in the schools and are taking many jobs. The other minorities have flooded into the San Diego and La areas, also. It's really nothing to do with race, it's a cultural and language barrier thing. I have a friend who worked as a nurse at Mt. Sinai Hospital in either San Diego or LA and she said all the other nurses were of another culture and they had trouble communicating to patients and kept to their own selves and cultural circles and she couldn't relate. Now she works at the Scripts Health Insitute and feels a part of a team of nurses who communicate with one another and she's much happier. Low level jobs up in Denver, like Wendy's and Burger King workers are all minorities, now! In our town (60 miles south), the older retirees and high school and college kids at least have a chance to earn something at fast food restaurants! That's just an example of what an influx of foreign speaking people can do to a community! It's hard to understand them, also, when they don't choose to learn the English language and that's so upsetting when you deal with various business transactions on the phone. God I hate that!

Well, I'm sure you have more stories!

posted 01-23-2004 08:21 PM            

Your poor dad! And you defending the Latinos who were being victimized is so honorable! Good for you!

We just need, as a nation, to be a little more careful with who we let into our country (like Canada), make sure immigrants receive some kind of language training -- even the adults -- and at the same time respect their individual cultures.

The immigrants need to respect law, taxes, and English as a functioning and primary language through which one must communicate all transactions in economic areas, health areas, and the other communications of day to day life.

Another aspect I do not like that I've read about, is the elderly from Mexico coming here to live with their younger relatives and take advantage of medicare. If they had paid into the kitty all of their lives, I could understand it. But many come here when they're old and use this health care system. Of course now, the system has changed and it will be more expensive -- so who knows? Maybe that will cut down on the number of elderly who come here for that reason.

But we still pay a high price for that, even. We'll be paying higher premiums, more for prescriptions, and it will be harder on everyone if the Repubs. get their way on the new healthcare reformation bill. It won't be pretty!

bc

posted 01-23-2004 08:34 PM            

Thanks Bush

posted 01-23-2004 10:22 PM            

But I get your drift! They must all be in a royal snit, to say the least!

I say all these acts of pandering to various voting populations will shoot them neocons all in their big fat feet! Clown feet! Evil smelly clown feet!

Let's see, we have the vets, the border patrols, the police, the firemen, the Latinos, the elderly, the educators, the women, the peace people, the ACLU, the unions, workers of all kinds without 4 year degrees, the attorneys, the doctors .... all mad at the Bushites! So how on earth are they going to keep these laws when they'll be kicked out of power? NO WAY!

Keep the faith! They're suicidal maniacs!

posted 01-24-2004 12:11 AM            

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Quotes from article:

The Bush administration's proposal to offer amnesty to illegal immigrant workers has prompted federal officials to instruct border patrol agents not to disclose information that might reflect poorly on the idea, a government document shows.

John Frecker, a border patrol union official and retired agent living in Maine, said the note is being used to intimidate agents into not raising concerns about problems they could face in dealing with an influx of illegal immigrants.

Some border officials fear the new offer will tempt more illegal immigrants to flood border crossings, especially in the Southwest.

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posted 02-02-2004 02:58 PM            

Lexta- “At least if you give them temporary work permits they are no longer anonymous figures. They're here anyway, under Bush's plan at least we'll know who and where they are. “PERHAPS IT’S NOT SUCH A BAD IDEA AFTER ALL, IS IT?”

This suggestion would surely place you in the category of the minority seeing as how MOST Americans would disagree with you. So now you know, “whatever that is”.

Lexta- “Show me a post where I defended or excused lawbreakers FOR THE CRIME THEY ARE COMMITTING. I don't.”

Refer to your second quote above, is that how you punish a criminal, with a work permit? It’s far worse than just defending their actions, it’s damn a promotion.

Lexta- “Do I think illegal aliens should be in the U.S.? No.”

Lexta- “No, I don't feel comfortable letting illegals in.”

Lexta- “They break immigration laws and that's why they should be punished and deported.”

You just invite them over for dinner

Lexta- “She had some neighbors that were also illegal aliens and they didn't do any of those things either. We (my parents, my brother and sister, and I) had them all over for Christmas dinner in 1994”

What a real stern stance

Lexta- “The illegals that may get permission to work here for awhile aren't getting citizenship.”

SO WHAT? More excuses, if one is not a citizen, one should not be working here.

Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
BECAUSE THEY SUPPORT THE CATASTROPHIC INVASION!!! THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT GIVES THEM SNACK PACKS FOR GOD'S SAKE TO MAKE THE ILLEGAL JOURNEY!! The only thing that deformed, corroded system of government has ever done for it's people is encourage them to come here.

Lexta- "Do you have recent evidence of that? Perhaps that was their approach to keep people from dying in the desert in the past. I.e., they figure "They're going to go anyway, might as well try to make sure they don't DIE from starvation and dehydration in the process."

One’s feet would probably be sore after such a long travel. Perhaps the Mexican government could also supply them some anti-fungal foot powder and a brand new pair of shoes made in a sweatshop? Hell, how about an air-conditioned shuttle bus right to the border, we wouldn’t want them to be harmed now would we?

“They’re going to go anyway”?

So that means instead of attempting to deter them, we pander to them? I sincerely do not feel that you believe in punishing illegal aliens whatsoever. Nor do I believe you are even slightly concerned about the harmful effects of this significant influx.

posted 02-02-2004 03:42 PM            

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Lexta- “I have never defended the view of "the minority" (whatever that is) regarding the Mexican border.”
Lexta- “At least if you give them temporary work permits they are no longer anonymous figures. They're here anyway, under Bush's plan at least we'll know who and where they are. “PERHAPS IT’S NOT SUCH A BAD IDEA AFTER ALL, IS IT?”

Know-This: This suggestion would surely place you in the category of the minority seeing as how MOST Americans would disagree with you. So now you know, “whatever that is”.

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Let's look at my full quote which you took out of context in another thread. I said: "I have never defended the view of "the minority" (whatever that is) regarding the Mexican border. I have agreed in every case that illegal immigration is wrong and that our border should be secured."

I said that I agree that illegal immigration is wrong. I agree illegal aliens should be deported. I agree the border should be secure.

But I disagree that the "majority" of people would disagree with my assertion that "PERHAPS IT’S NOT SUCH A BAD IDEA AFTER ALL, IS IT?" if it was framed in the way I frame it (i.e., they're here anyway, at least now we'll be able to identify them and deport them in a few months). The way you ask the question has a huge effect on the answers you will receive.

quote:

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Lexta- “Show me a post where I defended or excused lawbreakers FOR THE CRIME THEY ARE COMMITTING. I don't.”
Refer to your second quote above, is that how you punish a criminal, with a work permit? It’s far worse than just defending their actions, it’s damn a promotion.

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No, not when it's a temporary work permit that can be used to identify them and deport them after 6 months. It's enduring for 6 months illegal labor that's here anyway, but at least now we will know who and where they are.

I agree that if such a program were adopted that it should definitely be implemented along with strict border enforcement so additional illegals don't enter the country.

quote:

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Lexta- “Do I think illegal aliens should be in the U.S.? No.”

Lexta- “No, I don't feel comfortable letting illegals in.”

Lexta- “They break immigration laws and that's why they should be punished and deported.”

You just invite them over for dinner

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God forbid I treat them like humans (shudder) on Christmas rather than the animals they are, right? What a righteous, moral, and God-fearing American you are. I wish I could be more like you.

quote:

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Lexta- “She had some neighbors that were also illegal aliens and they didn't do any of those things either. We (my parents, my brother and sister, and I) had them all over for Christmas dinner in 1994”

What a real stern stance

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Would you have prefered I call immigration authorities on my girlfriend and her friends? Some human emotions go beyond nationality or immigration status.

quote:

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Lexta- “The illegals that may get permission to work here for awhile aren't getting citizenship.”

SO WHAT? More excuses, if one is not a citizen, one should not be working here.

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Actually, many non-citizens are legally allowed to work in the U.S. Non-citizens simply should not be allowed to vote and not be allowed to draw government benefits. And no-one is proposing that that change (as far as I have seen).

quote:

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BECAUSE THEY SUPPORT THE CATASTROPHIC INVASION!!! THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT GIVES THEM SNACK PACKS FOR GOD'S SAKE TO MAKE THE ILLEGAL JOURNEY!! The only thing that deformed, corroded system of government has ever done for it's people is encourage them to come here.

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You have no idea what you're talking about. Please provide legitimate links that show that the Mexican government encourages its people to move to the U.S. That's nonsense. The Mexican government would prefer to have its citizens in Mexico where they can be taxed.

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Me: “They’re going to go anyway”?
You: So that means instead of attempting to deter them, we pander to them?

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We're talking about the MEXICAN GOVERNMENT looking out for ITS people. It's NOT the Mexican government's responsibility to deter their citizens from going wherever they want to go just like it's not the United States' business whether I want to live in Mexico or not. If the U.S. wants to deter illegal immigration then it should do so. But don't blame the Mexican government for trying to avoid the death of its citizens.

That said, you still haven't provided any evidence that the Mexican government has been giving away "snack packs" to illegals heading north--certainly not that I've heard of in the last 6 years. Where did you get that information?

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I sincerely do not feel that you believe in punishing illegal aliens whatsoever. Nor do I believe you are even slightly concerned about the harmful effects of this significant influx.

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I could care less whether you think that I think illegals should be punished. I already said they should be captured and deported. Period. If you don't believe me, what difference does it make? I'm not losing any sleep over what you think about me.

posted 02-02-2004 04:39 PM            

When a large portion of Bush’s OWN PARTY rejects the very idea, I think it’s safe to assume that I am correct. I even heard Rush Limbaugh use some pretty negative undertones about it, and he’s quite the republican tool you know.

“No, not when it's a temporary work permit that can be used to identify them and deport them after 6 months. It's enduring for 6 months illegal labor that's here anyway, but at least now we will know who and where they are.”

And how do we find & force them to accept a temporary work permit if they decide they don’t want one? And are we assuming that %100 percent of them are coming here to work as opposed to say selling drugs?

“I agree that if such a program were adopted that it should definitely be implemented along with strict border enforcement so additional illegals don't enter the country.”

But there is no strict border enforcement, that’s my point the program is useless. We send them back, and they simply return again with ten more amigos. And of course the Mexican government won’t penalize them. We reward them and they are simply, temporarily inconvenienced. Whoop dee doo…….

“God forbid I treat them like humans (shudder) on Christmas rather than the animals they are, right? What a righteous, moral, and God-fearing American you are. I wish I could be more like you.”

“Animals”, now who’s putting words into another’s mouth?

You should turn your home in to a Ronald Mcdonald house far all that oppose the law. But seriously, I don’t care if it was Christmas, or if it was your girlfriend, would either of these excuses be supported in court, I DON’T THINK SO. I’m in no way righteous or moral, that’s my right. I am however realistic and I understand that we have regulations in place for many reasons. People shouldn’t be searching for loop holes to side step them.

“Would you have prefered I call immigration authorities on my girlfriend and her friends? Some human emotions go beyond nationality or immigration status.”

I would have been more than happy to do it for you.

Sometimes people make pretty poor decisions based on emotions rather than logic.

“Actually, many non-citizens are legally allowed to work in the U.S. Non-citizens simply should not be allowed to vote and not be allowed to draw government benefits. And no-one is proposing that that change (as far as I have seen).”

Do you mean with a visa?

“We're talking about the MEXICAN GOVERNMENT looking out for ITS people. It's NOT the Mexican government's responsibility to deter their citizens from going wherever they want to go”

I’ll tell you what, if terrorist attacks in this country thought to be originating from Mexico start to occur, you can bet they’ll be expected to start paying attention.

posted 02-02-2004 04:57 PM            

THANKS MEXICO!!!!

Border Patrol starts I-10 checkpoints

Increasing violence among immigrant smugglers, including this week's deadly shootout along the interstate, prompts the agency to monitor highways leading to Phoenix, and airports there and in Las Vegas.

GABRIELA RICO
Tucson Citizen

Increased activity and violence among immigrant smugglers have led to a new monitoring operation along Interstate 10 and at airports in Phoenix and Las Vegas.
U.S. Border Patrol agents last night set up several high-visibility traffic checkpoints on major highways to Phoenix, including for the first time I-10, according to Tucson sector spokesman Andy Adame.

Uniformed agents will also be at Sky Harbor International and Las Vegas McCarran International airports, two hot spots for smugglers.

"The goal of this operation is to disrupt and dismantle smuggling operations and smuggling hijacking organizations utilizing Arizona highways and public transportation," according to Adame.

On Tuesday on I-10, four people were killed and three wounded in a shootout between smugglers and "rip-off crews," who steal illegal immigrants from stash houses and then sell them back to the smuggler. A fifth person later died.

Authorities detained 27 people in the I-10 shootings, including five suspected shooters and suspected illegal immigrants believed to be part of the load being transported. No one has been charged.

From March 2002 through August of this year, there have been nine execution-style slayings in southwest Phoenix linked to immigrant smuggling, according to The Arizona Republic.

The new operation aims to discourage smugglers from moving illegal immigrants farther into the country, Adame said.

The operation will be conducted on paved public highways and inside the terminals of airports for an unspecified period, he said.

posted 02-02-2004 05:05 PM            

quote:

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Me: “But I disagree that the "majority" of people would disagree with my assertion that "PERHAPS IT’S NOT SUCH A BAD IDEA AFTER ALL, IS IT?"

You: When a large portion of Bush’s OWN PARTY rejects the very idea, I think it’s safe to assume that I am correct. I even heard Rush Limbaugh use some pretty negative undertones about it, and he’s quite the republican tool you know.

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Like I said, I have yet to see the poll numbers when the question is posed as I framed it. I don't argue that most people seem to be against it. But I don't think it is being framed the way I have framed it (i.e., they are here anyway, at least now we'll know who and where they are and can deport them).

quote:

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And how do we find & force them to accept a temporary work permit if they decide they don’t want one?

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We don't. In which case the whole program doens't really matter, does it? So why sweat it?

quote:

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And are we assuming that %100 percent of them are coming here to work as opposed to say selling drugs?

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Probably not 100%, but the vast majority move to the U.S. to work. It would be good to know who and where they are. At least in 6 months we have the option to deport them--an option we don't have now (since we don't know who and where they are).

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But there is no strict border enforcement, that’s my point the program is useless. We send them back, and they simply return again with ten more amigos. And of course the Mexican government won’t penalize them.

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Could you explain to me why the MEXICAN government should penalize them??? They're not breaking Mexican law!

Let's put this in terms that even you can (maybe) understand...

If Mexico no longer wanted Americans entering their country, and you entered their country and Mexico deported you, would you want the GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES to penalize you or throw you in American jail or fine you when you got back? Would that make any sense at all? Or would you scream that your government has no right to say where you can and can't go and (rightly) claim that you didn't break any law within the United States' jursidiction?

Of course, if you want to stick illegal aliens in American prisons before deporting them, fine. But that's going to cost some serious bucks. But if you want to do that, hey, I have no problem with it. The U.S. government has spent money on sillier things.

Let's fill our jails to overflowing with illegal aliens.

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“Animals”, now who’s putting words into another’s mouth?

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So, tell me... do you think it was wrong for me to have my girlfriend and a few of her friends (all illegal aliens) over to my house for Christmas dinner?

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But seriously, I don’t care if it was Christmas, or if it was your girlfriend, would either of these excuses be supported in court, I DON’T THINK SO.

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In a court? I'd be accused of having illegal aliens over for Christmas dinner? Heheh, whatever. They'd be deported, though, and that'd be fine. That's the law and there wouldn't have been much I could have done (short of marrying her, which I am ultimately glad I didn't do). But I wasn't going to call up the INS and report them if that's what you're suggesting I should have done. Perhaps you would have reported your girlfriend, though.

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I am however realistic and I understand that we have regulations in place for many reasons. People shouldn’t be searching for loop holes to side step them.

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Realistic would be recognizing that we have millions of illegal workers here anyway, we might as well give them motivation to register their presence so we can (hopefully) deport them in 6 months. Lacking that, I can assure you that relatively few of them will be found and deported 6 months from now.

THAT'S realistic.

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Me: “Would you have prefered I call immigration authorities on my girlfriend and her friends? Some human emotions go beyond nationality or immigration status.”
You: I would have been more than happy to do it for you.

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I don't doubt that at all. I have an urge to flame here, but I will restrain myself.

quote:

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Me: “Actually, many non-citizens are legally allowed to work in the U.S.
You: Do you mean with a visa?

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Of course.

quote:

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I’ll tell you what, if terrorist attacks in this country thought to be originating from Mexico starts to occur, you can bet they’ll be expected to start paying attention.

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I'm sure they'd pay attention who enters the country and they'd probably set up more (unconstitutional) roadblocks as you approach the border (violating the liberties of Mexican citizens so that you may be secure in your liberties). But I'll bet you good money they wouldn't place Mexican police or military forces on the U.S. border to physically prevent Mexicans from crossing it regardless of U.S. pressure.

Just like even if Mexico thought terrorist attacks were being launched on it from the U.S. I'll bet you the U.S. would NOT place armed U.S. soldiers on our southern border to prevent Americans from crossing the border. I'll bet you would raise holy hell if the U.S. government placed U.S. troops on the border to prevent YOU from crossing it.

Mexicans would rightfully do the same.

You seem to have a serious lack of understanding here... You want the Mexican government to restrict the freedoms and liberties of its citizens in Mexico in order to protect your political and economic freedom. That's BS.

posted 02-02-2004 05:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
THANKS MEXICO!!!!

Article: Increasing violence among immigrant smugglers, including this week's deadly shootout along the interstate, prompts the agency to monitor highways leading to Phoenix, and airports there and in Las Vegas.

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posted 02-02-2004 05:52 PM            

You can place your precious question in the prettiest of frames and it won’t change a thing.

“We don't. In which case the whole program doesn’t really matter, does it? So why sweat it?”

Bingo!!, you could re-phrase it this way, doesn’t really work. My point exactly.

“Probably not 100%, but the vast majority move to the U.S. to work.”

“Vast majority”, if you say so.

Sure, and I wonder how many ACTUAL citizens are denied opportunity of jobs because of it. The idea that illegals merely do jobs that Americans don’t want is a myth.

“If Mexico no longer wanted Americans entering their country, and you entered their country and Mexico deported you, would you want the GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES to penalize you or throw you in American jail or fine you when you got back? Would that make any sense at all? Or would you scream that your government has no right to say where you can and can't go and (rightly) claim that you didn't break any law within the United States' jursidiction?”

You’re talking about isolated incidents. Most Americans have no desire to live in Mexico but that’s besides the point. If there was a widespread intrusion of Americans into Mexico by the millions as we have here, it might be seen as quite the threat. I guarantee that Mexico would demand that something be done about it. Of course if I were the one making the illegal entrance I wouldn’t ask to be punished, that’s ridiculous. But if a multitude of Mexicans we’re losing their jobs because of it, they’d be pissed too.

“if you want to stick illegal aliens in American prisons before deporting them, fine. But that's going to cost some serious bucks.”

Now you’re talking, we have plenty of empty military concentration camps intended for “civilian inmates” sitting around. Toss them in there for a few years and see how eager they are to try again. I’d rather see the money go there then another trip to frickin Mars.

“So, tell me... do you think it was wrong for me to have my girlfriend and a few of her friends (all illegal aliens) over to my house for Christmas dinner?”

It’s your choice to create a safe haven for criminals.

“Perhaps you would have reported your girlfriend, though.”

She’s legal, the way I like them.

“we might as well give them motivation to register their presence so we can (hopefully) deport them in 6 months. Lacking that, I can assure you that relatively few of them will be found and deported 6 months from now.”

So they can come right back, great plan

“I don't doubt that at all. I have an urge to flame here, but I will restrain myself.”

Go ahead and burn up

“But I'll bet you good money they wouldn't place Mexican police or military forces on the U.S. border to physically prevent Mexicans from crossing it regardless of U.S. pressure.”

If they didn’t, we’d be forced to put our troops on Mexican soil to do it for them.

posted 02-02-2004 06:06 PM            

"Probably not 100%"

posted 02-02-2004 08:38 PM            

quote:

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Me: Like I said, I have yet to see the poll numbers when the question is posed as I framed it.

Know-This: You can place your precious question in the prettiest of frames and it won’t change a thing.

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If you think that the way pollsters phrase their questions is neutral, you are naive.

If you ask, "Do you support rewarding crime such as illegal immigration?" you will probably get 95% saying "no." If you ask, "Do you support granting illegal aliens a 6-month temporary work permit so they may be identified and subsequently deported" you will probably find that a majority respond favorably.

The funny thing is the same people will answer honestly both times. But the question you ask does effect the answer.

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You: “We don't. In which case the whole program doesn’t really matter, does it? So why sweat it?”

Me: Bingo!!, you could re-phrase it this way, doesn’t really work. My point exactly.

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Ok, so why are we even arguing about it? I'm content to agree that it might be useless. My way of looking at is this: At best we might identify some illegals and hopefully deport them soon. At worst, we're no worse off than we are now.

So why are we arguing this?

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“Probably not 100%, but the vast majority move to the U.S. to work.”

“Vast majority”, if you say so.

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Are you suggesting that a large percentage of illegal aliens move to the U.S. to do something other than to work hard?

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Sure, and I wonder how many ACTUAL citizens are denied opportunity of jobs because of it. The idea that illegals merely do jobs that Americans don’t want is a myth.

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What, are you afraid of all these poor Mexican drug traffickers (as you stereotype them) coming in and taking the high-paying jobs that Americans want in the tech industry, health care, corporate management? Those aren't the jobs they're taking.

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You’re talking about isolated incidents. Most Americans have no desire to live in Mexico but that’s besides the point. If there was a widespread intrusion of Americans into Mexico by the millions as we have here, it might be seen as quite the threat. I guarantee that Mexico would demand that something be done about it.

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You miss the point entirely in this hypothetical situation. Mexico might "demand it," but the American government would rightfully ignore the demand.

I'm simply asking you: If the U.S. government put armed American troops on the Mexican and Canadian borders at the request of Mexico and Canada to prevent Americans from crossing their borders, would you approve of that use of American troops?

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Of course if I were the one making the illegal entrance I wouldn’t ask to be punished, that’s ridiculous. But if a multitude of Mexicans we’re losing their jobs because of it, they’d be pissed too.

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Again, you totally miss the point. My point is if you illegaly enter Mexico and Mexico deports you back to the U.S., would it be appropriate or legal for the American government to throw you in an American jail for illegaly entering Mexico?

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Now you’re talking, we have plenty of empty military concentration camps intended for “civilian inmates” sitting around. Toss them in there for a few years and see how eager they are to try again.

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If someone wants to throw illegal aliens in jail before deporting them that would seem completely reasonable to me. No argument from me there.

quote:

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Me: “So, tell me... do you think it was wrong for me to have my girlfriend and a few of her friends (all illegal aliens) over to my house for Christmas dinner?”

You: It’s your choice to create a safe haven for criminals.

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You're a piece of work.

quote:

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Me: “Perhaps you would have reported your girlfriend, though.”

You: She’s legal, the way I like them.

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But if she wasn't? Would you report her? Or if you loved her and later found out she was illegal, would you dump her? Would you despise her for violating the laws of your country?

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Me: “But I'll bet you good money they wouldn't place Mexican police or military forces on the U.S. border to physically prevent Mexicans from crossing it regardless of U.S. pressure.”

You: If they didn’t, we’d be forced to put our troops on Mexican soil to do it for them.

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You are living in a dream world and obviously have no clue about Mexican/American bilaterial relations, international law, and international relations.

What you are suggesting wouldn't happen. Ever. We would put U.S. troops on the U.S. border with Mexico. We would ask for cooperation in Mexican airports. We would make it harder for Mexicans to get visas. But we would not place our troops on Mexican soil. I think you need to cut back on the testosterone supplements.

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Me: "I'm sure they'd pay attention who enters the country and they'd probably set up more (unconstitutional) roadblocks as you approach the border"

Explain what's considered "constitutional" in Mexico would you? God forbid someone should encounter something as painful as a roadblock.

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Just as in the U.S., the Mexican Constitution prohibits unlawful search and seizure and further guarantees that all people shalle be secure in their "papers and posessions." That specifically means no roadblocks or checkpoints without probable cause. Just as Americans are getting upset about the constitutionality of post-9/11 roadblocks being placed in some locations (such as on the approach to Hoover dam), so would Mexicans be rightfully upset about unconstitutional roadblocks in Mexico. And, again, the Mexican constitution goes one step further than ours: They are secure in their "papers and posessions" and, in the language of that article of their constitution, general roadblocks are not allowed.

So for you to suggest that Mexico violate the constitutional freedom of movement guaranteed to Mexicans by their constitution in order to make you feel a little safer is supremely shortsighted. It's exactly like if you had invasive roadblocks all over the U.S. simply to protect Mexico's interests. I suspect you wouldn't like that too much, would you? Is there any reason you would expect Mexicans to tolerate the same?

posted 02-02-2004 09:39 PM            

“If you think that the way pollsters phrase their questions is neutral, you are naive.”

You’re correct, that’s politics, and that’s your own spin on it. I could put my own twist on it and the results would be in my favor. But I don’t have to because they already are. Regardless of whatever poll you’re sitting on.

“Ok, so why are we even arguing about it? I'm content to agree that it might be useless. My way of looking at is this: At best we might identify some illegals and hopefully deport them soon. At worst, we're no worse off than we are now.
So why are we arguing this?”

I feel you are dealing with the symptom rather than the cause. A dog can scratch all day long because of his fleas, but without proper medication, they’ll keep coming back. We’re effectively just throwing the fleas back into the rug they came from for a quick retrun. At first you seemed to say it was a “good idea after all”. That’s why we’re arguing. Now I’m sensing common ground.

“Are you suggesting that a large percentage of illegal aliens move to the U.S. to do something other than to work hard?”

Maybe not a relatively “large” percentage, but possibly enough to raise an eyebrow. No one can be absolutely sure of anothers intentions. I think there should be some form of a background check. Anything is better than a nonchalant who cares attitude. The Mexican government should cooperate.

“What, are you afraid of all these poor Mexican drug traffickers (as you stereotype them) coming in and taking the high-paying jobs that Americans want in the tech industry, health care, corporate management? Those aren't the jobs they're taking.”

I know first hand what jobs they are taking because I have worked side by side with them myself.

You miss the point entirely in this hypothetical situation. Mexico might "demand it," but the American government would rightfully ignore the demand.

That’s how wars start pal……

“Again, you totally miss the point. My point is if you illegaly enter Mexico and Mexico deports you back to the U.S., would it be appropriate or legal for the American government to throw you in an American jail for illegaly entering Mexico?”

You say “I” and I would never do such a thing so remove me from the equation. But I would expect the American government to seriously consider the credibility of such a person. If he/she could care less about “their” laws, why would they respect ours?

”What you are suggesting wouldn't happen. Ever. We would put U.S. troops on the U.S. border with Mexico. We would ask for cooperation in Mexican airports. We would make it harder for Mexicans to get visas. But we would not place our troops on Mexican soil. I think you need to cut back on the testosterone supplements”

Did we ask for permission or cooperation in Iraq? With Bush in charge we have a hair trigger ready to blast, with or without reasonable doubt. No WMD’s so far, right? We held Saddam and Irag accountable for what his people allegedly did.

posted 02-03-2004 08:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
I respect your intelligence and determination Lexta, accept this as friendly banter and not convective.

---

In that case, likewise.

quote:

---

You’re correct, that’s politics, and that’s your own spin on it. I could put my own twist on it and the results would be in my favor. But I don’t have to because they already are. Regardless of whatever poll you’re sitting on.

---

True. But I never said that the currently posed polls supported me. I simply took an alternative viewpoint at the possible merits of the temporary worker proposal--a viewpoint specifically NOT being mentioned by the administration or in the news since it would obviously scare illegals from participating in the proposal--and suggested that if the whole thing were framed in that context I'll bet more than 50% would support it.

I may be wrong and certainly don't have anything to back me up on that for the reasons you yourself mentioned.

quote:

---

I feel you are dealing with the symptom rather than the cause. A dog can scratch all day long because of his fleas, but without proper medication, they’ll keep coming back. We’re effectively just throwing the fleas back into the rug they came from for a quick retrun. At first you seemed to say it was a “good idea after all”. That’s why we’re arguing. Now I’m sensing common ground.

---

Ok...

Again, the reason I said "maybe it's a good
idea after all" is that at least we'd be identifying illegals. I actually don't look at it as even treating the symptoms of illegal immigration let alone the cause. It just attempts to identify some of the millions of people we know are here and know we know nothing about. I look at it as more as a domestic security initiative.

But, no, I agree it doesn't stop illegal immigration. If I ever suggested that I thought it did then I didn't express myself clearly.

quote:

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Maybe not a relatively “large” percentage, but possibly enough to raise an eyebrow.

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Enough to raise an eyebrow? The same can be said for inner-city blacks in many large cities. This leads to the concept of racial profiling which is a whole other topic.

quote:

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No one can be absolutely sure of anothers intentions. I think there should be some form of a background check. Anything is better than a nonchalant who cares attitude. The Mexican government should cooperate.

---

Ok, but what would you consider to be "cooperation?" What level and type of cooperation are you suggesting?

quote:

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I know first hand what jobs they are taking because I have worked side by side with them myself.

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What kind of jobs are they taking, then?

quote:

---

You miss the point entirely in this hypothetical situation. Mexico might "demand it," but the American government would rightfully ignore the demand.

That’s how wars start pal……

---

Hahah. Right. Not going to happen.

quote:

---

Me: “Again, you totally miss the point. My point is if you illegaly enter Mexico and Mexico deports you back to the U.S., would it be appropriate or legal for the American government to throw you in an American jail for illegaly entering Mexico?”

You say “I” and I would never do such a thing so remove me from the equation. But I would expect the American government to seriously consider the credibility of such a person. If he/she could care less about “their” laws, why would they respect ours?

---

"Credibility" has nothing to do with it.

The question I ask you is: Would you support the concept of the U.S. Government throwing Americans into American jails after they have been deported from Mexico for violating Mexican immigration laws?

quote:

---

”What you are suggesting wouldn't happen. Ever. We would put U.S. troops on the U.S. border with Mexico. We would ask for cooperation in Mexican airports. We would make it harder for Mexicans to get visas. But we would not place our troops on Mexican soil. I think you need to cut back on the testosterone supplements”

You: Did we ask for permission or cooperation in Iraq? With Bush in charge we have a hair trigger ready to blast, with or without reasonable doubt. No WMD’s so far, right? We held Saddam and Irag accountable for what his people allegedly did.

---

Heheh, again, you need to lower your testosterone intake. Mexico is not going to invade the U.S., the U.S. is not going to invade Mexico. I understand that the U.S. can be trigger-happy, but there is no rationale or motive to attack Mexico. It would be cheaper, more effective, more logical, and more acceptable under international law to defend our border ourselves. This is what would happen.

quote:

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Me: "It's exactly like if you had invasive roadblocks all over the U.S. simply to protect Mexico's interests"

You: Just along the border, sure wouldn't effect me any. A roadblock at the end of my driveway wouldn't prevent aliens would it, that's not what I'm proposing. You're drifting off buddy.

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So you would have no problems having armed, obligatory checkpoints, say, 20 miles north of the U.S./Mexican border and all up and down I-10 inquiring everyone that passes through what their business is at the request of the Mexican government?

That might not affect you, but would you not be worried about the freedoms of fellow Americans in San Diego, Yuma, Tucson, El Paso, San Antonio, and Houston? And that fellow Americans' freedoms are being violated at the request of a foreign government?

Believe me, if roadblocks were placed ANYWHERE in the U.S. at the request of the Mexican government, I can guarantee you that Mech would be posting that fact to this very website. I'm sure that kind of BS would not be tolerated by Mech, it wouldn't be tolerated by me, and, I bet, by very few Americans. I'm even willing to bet it wouldn't be tolerated by you.

posted 02-03-2004 11:09 PM            

Having grown up in the southwest....
I've known many people who came into America to work and support their families.

Some of them jumped through all the hoops to get a green card and were by definition "legal" aliens.
Many more
either bought green cards from corrupt federal officials during the reagan years
or
were using the same green card in turns,
as employers cared not which "Guillermo Vega' was at work,
as long as somebody was there making money for the boss by performing the labor.

That none of them would ever claim the Social Security contributions
which they all generated by working in the USA
is somehow never included in the arguments.

That they were 'illegals' and therefore more law abiding than native born;
For fear they would be deported...
is also not mentioned in the arguments.

That the only effective cure to illegal workers is to fine employers is rarely mentioned in the arguments.

(no illegals would be working here if employers refused to hire illegals-
Yes- it really is that simple!)

Making the employer responsible for checking ID when hiring and making employers responsible for legality of their' workers (who make them rich while working for subsistence wages)
That is the simple effective flawless solution to illegal immigration!

So.
Why do we have this current problem?

Something rotten about the American system
that condones letting wealthy people literally get away with murder, while penalizing poor people who are only struggling to survive.

The 'wetback' comments are 'bigotry as usual' to my Hispanic in-laws.

the crime comments disregard that every (shut out of the american dream/ and forced to work for slave wages) immigrant population has numbers of people who learn that, in america,
crime does pay, and pay handsomely!
While honest labor pays very little and employers cheat steal and
call el immigre instead of distributing paychecks,
all too often.

posted 02-03-2004 11:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by letxa2000:
Do you support granting illegal aliens a 6-month temporary work permit so they may be identified and subsequently deported" you will probably find that a majority respond favorably.

---

I know of no one that would respond favorably to this! If the majority of citizens even knew the shambles our immigration system is in, they'd be even MORE AGAINST THIS CRAZY IDEA! I thought we previously discussed this concept. I'll repeat myself again - the current U.S. immigration system DOES NOT WORK!!!! We supposedly know where immigrants are on temporary student or work visas, BUT WE DO NOTHING ABOUT DEPORTING THEM AFTER THEIR EXPIRATION DATE! We DO NOT have the manpower to handle immigration needs properly. The system needs a major overhaul before we could even consider keeping track of millions of illegal immigrants.

posted 02-04-2004 09:33 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
When I see our countries economy collapsing many things come to mind. I begin to wonder, why is our dollar decreasing in value and where are all of our jobs going? Our jobs are being sent to places like China, India, Mexico etc. for cheap labor. At the same time, we have people coming here illegally from other countries to make money, and spending it not here, but wherever they came from. And these are jobs that many Americans need in order to support their families. Even if it were a fast food job. But it's also golf course's, construction work, landscaping or whatever else. As I've mentioned before, jobs in general are becoming increasingly scarce and TRUE Americans are as desperate as ever. I'm not trying to be selfish, but simply patriotic and self preserving. Our countries economy will not hold up much longer with all of this taking place.

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Welcome to the 21st century and "free trade."

As much as some radicals may be opposed to free trade, it's going to happen. Period. There's no stopping it. The question is not whether or not it's going to happen, the question is how it's going to be implemented and when.

Free trade is a reality and it will eventually lead to a be better standard of living for everyone in the world. Including us. But there will be some "growing pains" and that's what we're seeing now in terms of some jobs moving to India and China (not so much Mexico anymore, by the way... even Mexico has been undersold and there is concern in Mexico that too much of their work is going overseas too!).

Another product of free trade will eventually be the free movement of labor. If goods can move around without a problem, labor will have to be able to do the same. You can't have unlimited free trade with people isolated in bubbles (countries). That's the main reason some jobs are moving to lower-paying countries... companies are taking advantage of the fact that people in some isolated bubbles get paid less.

The whole "isolated bubble" is the source of our problems. It leads to protectionist tarrifs that slow down the world economy. It leads to illegal immigration as someone tries to leave their bubble to move to a better bubble. And it leads to companies moving their operations to low-paying bubbles.

Protectionist trade policies are obsolete and will only harm the country that implements them. We're not in the 1950's anymore. The only way forward is to open our markets, not close them.

There will be an adjustment period as trade barriers come down. You're going to see better prices for consumers as domestic companies have to compete with overseas companies, although the corporate profit margin will be slimmer. You are going to see more worker mobility between countries--already today the world has the highest immigrant population (i.e., the highest number of people that don't live in the country in which they were born). That's only going to increase--not just in the U.S., but worldwide. And you're going to see a that the whole "problem" of jobs going overseas is going to start tapering off as the low-priced bubbles that currently are fueling it start to open up. And, in some cases, jobs are already coming back as companies have tried moving some operations to India and have found it to be unacceptable (Dell moving a call center back to the U.S. from India).

Anyway, I understand the desire to protect the U.S. economy and worker. I wish it was as easy as sealing our border and putting up protectionist trade barriers and passing laws prohibiting U.S. companies from moving their operations to low-priced countries overseas. But the reality is that it's just not that simple and while we may be going through some pains right now, the pain of becoming 100% isolationist would be much higher and would do far more damage to the U.S. economy and the U.S. worker.