posted 02-04-2004 03:49 PM            

The actual quoate is:

posted 02-04-2004 04:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
"As it is now, free trade is set up for the sole benefit of corporations. It is not
set up to benefit workers anywhere in the world.

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That's because worldwide free trade does not exist yet. And more importantly, worker mobility does not exist. As long as there are areas of the world that receive substandard pay, corporations will benefit by moving their operations to those areas. However, worker mobility will ensure that such substandard pay regions will eventually disappear.

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The main reason for the present plan is to lower the standard of living to slave wages in all countries including our own.

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That's nonsense. It is in no-one's benefit to lower the standard of living here or elsewhere. Slave wages equates to a society completely lacking in income to spend on all the goods the corporations want to sell us. The conclusion that anyone wants to lower our standard of living is illogical.

quote:

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I lived through the 50's. Prices were just fine in those days and anyone who wanted to work could find it.

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Yes, "the good 'ol days." Times change. The world is smaller in every way imaginable. This is what is forcing us to free trade. Competition, centuries ago, was just what existed within a city. As transportation improved, merchants in one city could compete with those further away. As transportation has further improved and become cheaper, we must now all compete with everyone in the world.

We're not living in the 1950's and dreaming about years gone by will not help us remain competitive in the future.

quote:

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Corporate greed is what fuels this
movement.

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Corporate greed is fueled by personal greed, both by the board of directors of a company as well as the stockholders (you and me) that own shares.

quote:

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I can only assume that persons who are pro Free Trade have nothing to lose or they
are brainwashed middle management employees who think they have nothing to
lose.

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I am neither. Free trade will be a reality and will eventually improve standards of living worldwide. Just as it does not make sense for the state of Colorado to impose tarrifs on goods from Utah, it doesn't make sense for one country to impose tarrifs on other countries.

If you disagree, could you explain why?

quote:

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Small business owners may see some benefit in the early stages but will soon
find out that most of the customers they rely on are lower and middle class wage earners. Profits die when the middle class dies.

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The exact same statement can be said for large corporations. Very few corporations provide goods we need, they provide goods we want. The same companies you accuse of wanting us to have a lower standard of living will also see profits die if what you describe were true. But what you describe isn't true.

quote:

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Another danger comes to mind. We are losing our manufacturing base. What if we
have a military conflict with a country that produces our tanks, missiles or war planes?

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posted 02-04-2004 07:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
8 to 12 million Mexicans had the mobility to cruise over here no problem, what do you mean?

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posted 02-04-2004 09:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
Atleast from my perspective, none of the scenarios you've described will ever take place. It seems more like wishful thinking than anything.

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It's not wishful thinking, it's inevitable.

quote:

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Countries like China aren't going to change just because of a bunch of free traitors giving away jobs. It's not like the entire world is based on capitalism like we are. The same does not apply to them.

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I agree that free trade must be implemented smartly and in parallel. We can't lower our trade barriers if no-one else does. That's why there are all these "free trade talks"--to negotiate the steady reduction of tarrifs.

Free trade isn't a one-way street. We can't implement it unless everyone else does, too.

quote:

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Eventually Americans will be forced to work at even lesser wages out of desperation. These other countries WANT to suppress their people. We're merely playing into their hands and being taken advantage of, it's actually shameful.

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As (I believe) you said, capitalism is stronger than governments. Actually, you said corporations, but it really amounts to capitalism.

In most cases I would disagree that most countries--even China--want their people to be poor. They may want to subject them to their political will, but I disagree that anyone wants poor citizens. It doesn't make any sense from an economic or stability perspective. And even if they did want poor citizens, the leaders of these "other countries" will have their own will overrun by the forces of capitalism.

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I so far have not even seen the slightest hint or sign of anything that you've said occuring since Clinton signed NAFTA.

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According to this site trade amongst NAFTA members is up 78% in 10 years in real terms while trade with Mexico is up 141%. Meanwhile, U.S. trade with the rest of the world only increased 43% in the same time. Free trade stimulates trade, and that's a good thing.

Increased trade is increased capitalism and increased opportunity for everyone. Yes, we need to implement free trade smartly and perhaps that isn't being done.

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This country was just fine for so many years without free trade.

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Our country did fine without Internet for 220 years, but that doesn't mean that our country would be better off today if we just went cold-turkey on the Internet. Again, you can't just sit around and think of the "good old days." That's the past. It's done. It's history. Throwing up trade barriers won't bring them back, but will isolate us from the rest of the world that will continue to move forward without us. And we will fall behind.

Don't be afraid of free trade, seize it as an opportunity.

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Nowaday's you can go to a store like Big Lots and purchase an "American flag", and it's made in China. It's completely insulting!

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So start your own U.S. flag company in the United States. Or go out of your way to purchase a U.S.-made American flag. But most people want "cheap" and don't care whether or not it's "made in America." That's us as a society. No-one forces us to buy anything.

Interestingly, there was a flap here in Mexico about 3 or 4 years ago that the huge Mexican flag that they fly at the border with the U.S. in Nuevo Laredo was actually made by an American Company in the United States. So, you see, it's not just the U.S. Free trade and international trade is a fact of life as much for Mexico as it is for the U.S. And while our flags may be made in China, Mexico's flags were made in the U.S.

posted 02-04-2004 10:01 PM            

Please leave the job of foreseeing the future to Nostradamus

“In most cases I would disagree that most countries--even China--want their people to be poor.”

I disagree, and besides I said suppressed not poor.

“but I disagree that anyone wants poor citizens. It doesn't make any sense from an economic or stability perspective.”

Not if you happen to be the “Saddam Hussein” benefiting from hoarding all the booty. China, one of the most secretive governments in the world does not operate the way we do at all. You’re trying to apply your own logic to very foreign concepts. As well as a very corrupt organization.

“Increased trade is increased capitalism and increased opportunity for everyone. Yes, we need to implement free trade smartly and perhaps that isn't being done.”

Finally common ground! I never said free trade should be terminated and that we should become isolationists. But as you said, it’s not being handled properly. The detrimental effects of it’s current installation in my opinion will be colossal. Besides, there is no way for us to ensure that China will comply with any of our requests. In fact we can be sure that they won’t. In turn, none of the problems we are discussing will be solved.

“Our country did fine without Internet for 220 years, but that doesn't mean that our country would be better off today if we just went cold-turkey on the Internet.”

But people aren’t losing jobs because of it’s introduction. Everything has pro’s and cons, you have to weigh them out, the internet is petty stuff. I don’t think that’s a very valid comparison.

“Throwing up trade barriers won't bring them back, but will isolate us from the rest of the world that will continue to move forward without us”

They are as we speak, and they’re doing so with our help. They love creating impostor versions of our products at our expense. Would you consider China to be our ally? Why would we trade with them? We sell them our own weapons and they in turn sell them to places like Iran. I don't trust them at all, we're giving them exactly what they want.

“But most people want "cheap" and don't care whether or not it's "made in America."

Not true, my friend was an assistant manger there and they nearly had to pull them off the shelves due to outrage. Contrary to what you might think, some people actually exhibit a sense of loyalty to this country. There's a price you pay for freedom. Those that want “cheap” are the free traitors selling us out for slave labor without the slightest of inhibitions or considerations for the American people they toss aside to do it.

“But, yeah, a 98 cent flag at WalMart probably isn't going to be made in the country with one of the highest labor rates in the world.”

We’ll see just how long those labor rates remain at these levels, which btw, minimum wage still isn’t anywhere near livable. It won't improve at this rate.

posted 02-04-2004 10:07 PM            

http://www.softwar.net/beijingx.html

Presidential
Business Development
Mission To
Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou
and
Hong Kong
led by
The Honorable Ronald H. Brown
Secretary of Commerce
August 27 - September 3, 1994
*****
Background Information

CHINA ISSUES SUMMARY

Trade Trends
U.S. exports to China in 1993 totaled $8.8 billion, an historic high. Growth in U.S. exports, however, has been over-shadowed in recent years by our trade imbalance, which reached $22.8 billion in 1993, second only to our deficit with Japan. Our imbalance for the first five months of 1994 reached $9.2 billion, up 23 percent as compared to the same period last year.
Market Access
At the conclusion of a year long investigation on October 10, 1992, the U.S. and China signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) which provides for the phased elimination of non-tariff barriers on key U.S. exports and tariff reductions in certain sectors. The Chinese recently took steps under the agreement to increase transparency and remove import licensing requirements, quotas, and controls. USTR continues to press for full implementation.
IPR
On May 26, 1991, USTR initiated a Section 301 investigation of China'S IPR regime. At the conclusion of six rounds of consultations on January 17, 1992, the U.S. and China signed a Memorandum of Understanding that commits China to provide improved protection for U.S. intellectual property in the copyright, patent, and trade secret areas. Although China has greatly improved the legal regime for protecting intellectual property (IPR), enforcement is a - growing problem. On December 1, 1993, China was placed on the Priority Watch List for lack of IPR enforcement. On June 30, USTR Kantor named China a "priority foreign country" under the Special 301 Trade legislation and initiated a six-month investigation into China's protection of IPR. Negotiations are scheduled for August in Beijing.
Export Controls
Last August, the U.S. imposed sanctions on China for an M-11 missile-related transfer to Pakistan. On January 7, 1994, it was decided that although communications satellites licensed by the State Department are covered by the sanctions law, export licenses for communications satellites licensed by the Deparunent of Commerce may be approved. Two such export licenses for communications satellites were recently approved by the Department of Commerce.
Textiles
China has exported in excess of its quotas in circumvention of our bilateral agreement U.S. Customs investigations showed that many shipments of Chinese textiles were transshipped and/or falsely labeled as originating in third countries. On January 17, 1994, the U.S. and China signed a Memorandum of Underslanding establishing a new three year textiles agreement which imposes a cap on China's previously unlimited silk exports, reduces quota growth for the final two years of the agreement, and includes transshipment language prodding for penalties and factory visits.

posted 02-05-2004 10:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
Not if you happen to be the “Saddam Hussein” benefiting from hoarding all the booty. China, one of the most secretive governments in the world does not operate the way we do at all. You’re trying to apply your own logic to very foreign concepts. As well as a very corrupt organization.

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These are other problems that need to be solved, then. Like I said, we need to implement it smartly. If China doesn't reciprocate our tarrif reductions then we obviously shouldn't increase free trade with them until they do. It can't be a one-way street, like I said.

quote:

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Me: “Our country did fine without Internet for 220 years, but that doesn't mean that our country would be better off today if we just went cold-turkey on the Internet.”

You: But people aren’t losing jobs because of it’s introduction. Everything has pro’s and cons, you have to weigh them out, the internet is petty stuff. I don’t think that’s a very valid comparison.

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Actually, that wasn't my point. My point is that our country did fine without 220 years, now we have it, but there would be a significant impact now if we took it away--even if we did fine without it for 220 years. Likewise, we didn't have as much international trade in the 1950's and we did fine. But if we were now to try to take international trade away, we'd almost definitely go into recession.

The only way is forward.

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They love creating impostor versions of our products at our expense. Would you consider China to be our ally? Why would we trade with them?

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No, I don't consider them our ally. But I have no problems selling our (non-military) goods to them and buying stuff from them.

quote:

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We sell them our own weapons and they in turn sell them to places like Iran. I don't trust them at all, we're giving them exactly what they want.

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If we are selling them weapons then I agree that is wrong. And the sale of military equipment is a whole other matter aside from free trade.

quote:

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Me: “But most people want "cheap" and don't care whether or not it's "made in America."

You: Not true, my friend was an assistant manger there and they nearly had to pull them off the shelves due to outrage. Contrary to what you might think, some people actually exhibit a sense of loyalty to this country.

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Well, I haven't seen that reaction myself. Although if there's anything that would provoke that reaction, it would be the flag. But soon after 9/11 I bought some of those flags at WalMart and people were grabbing them left and right. No-one seemed to care. That was in San Antonio TX in September 2001.

quote:

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There's a price you pay for freedom. Those that want “cheap” are the free traitors selling us out for slave labor without the slightest of inhibitions or considerations for the American people they toss aside to do it.

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Whatever. It's called capitalism and, to be honest, I don't care if something was built in my home town in Colorado, in California, or in India. I'm not rich and I need a good deal. I can't and won't go subsidizing an inefficient enterprise just because it's American. Especially if it's for something that doesn't require high-paid labor (i.e. a flag, a spoon, a mousepad). On the other hand, I've never purchased software that wasn't written in the U.S.

quote:

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We’ll see just how long those labor rates remain at these levels, which btw, minimum wage still isn’t anywhere near livable. It won't improve at this rate.

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posted 02-06-2004 02:36 PM            

NO ITS NOT. If anything its CRONY capitalism or CRIMINAL Capitalism. White collar crime at its finest. Unacceptable behavior in a Constitutional Republic.

It must be reformed. Nafta and Gatt and the WTO repealed 100%.

It DOESNT benefit a society...it benefits A FEW POWERFUL ELITISTS.

Long ago when we had a FUNCTIONAL GOVERNMENT...when a corporation did wrong to the population...THEIR CORPORATE CHARTER WAS REVOKED.

We need to bring back this LONG NEGLECTED law.

ENRON and HALLIBURTON is just the TINY tip
of the iceberg.

Otherwise, we as a people are headed for CORPORATE FASCISM approved by a CORRUPT GOVERNMENT.

I guess you see labor and producing things as basically worthless and their workers as not worthy of a LIVABLE WAGE. I suppose only TWITS on WALL ST. deserve a COST OF LIVING (C.O.L.A.) wage.

If Lex supports Capitalism in its present form..he supports "THE RACE TO THE BOTTOM" (Who will work for the lowest wage?)

I wwonder what LEX would think if HIS job was being "OUTSORCED", "DOWNSIZED"and HIS wages cut because some economist SAID it was "not worth" the present wage?

posted 02-06-2004 07:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mech:
I wwonder what LEX would think if HIS job was being "OUTSORCED", "DOWNSIZED"and HIS wages cut because some economist SAID it was "not worth" the present wage?

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I'd would move on and find another job. Really. No one is obligated to pay me $100/hr if someone else can or will do it for less. In fact, I would be offended if someone wanted to "protect" my job. I don't need protecting. If/when my services are no longer needed, I'll do something else.

To give you an idea: I'm a software developer. The latest "scare" is all the technology jobs that are going to India. That is something that is happening in my field and I do not support the idea of legislation being passed to limit this.

posted 02-06-2004 10:54 PM            

when one drives through town and sees miles and miles and miles of gas stations with exactly the same price one starts to wonder...monopoly???

The free market in theory would work great if The People always REALLLY had a choice. If I don't like gas prices where do I go when they are all identical??? If I don't like electricity rates where do I go if I only have one company available??? If I don't think water rates are fair where do I go if there is only one supplier available??? Some things like basic necessities maybe should be put together for the COMMON GOOD. That's not Liberalism! That's not Communism! That's Common sense. l
Let's compete and let the best person/company win based upon EXCELLENCE not crony give away contracts!!! Let's be straight. The neo-Cons have hijacked the Republican party and they seem to be set on more major bloodshed for profit and Empire. Like the Nazi's in pre Reich power, now is the time to expunge these Fascist Anti-American hate-mongers. Throw out these bringers of death and destruction and let's usher in an era of Peace and prosperity that we ALL KNOW is possible.

posted 02-09-2004 10:45 AM            

How wonderfully immaculate that sounds in theory, AND IN THEORY ALONE. Too bad we have an empty figurehead for a leader being led by a corporate leash. Our country has become the fire hydrant for which he relieves himself upon, I believe it’s known as the “trickle down theory”. As Bill Maher said, it’s just another way of saying “they’re pissing on us”! There is no hope that any policy created by the current administration will be implemented intelligently.

“Actually, that wasn't my point. My point is that our country did fine without 220 years, now we have it”

Uhhhh, WTF! are you talking about?

“And the sale of military equipment is a whole other matter aside from free trade.”

Many of the countries we openly trade with are the same one’s that our “intelligence” claims sponsor terrorism. We are feeding the enemy.

“But soon after 9/11 I bought some of those flags at WalMart and people were grabbing them left and right.”

And those same people would probably wear a shirt that said “I’m a complete idiot” if endorsed by a republican. I’m not interested in the doings of anti-American morons.

“I don't care if something was built in my home town in Colorado, in California, or in India.”

Many IT jobs are moving to India, they say it’s because “us Americans” aren’t capable of doing the job well enough. That would be addressing you Mr. expert software developer, they’re BETTER THAN YOU they say. But that’s ok, you’re offended by any form of job security, you’ll just move on right? It's just so simple to lead the life of a nomad. You want worker mobility? You enjoy lack of stability and the job chasing lifestyle? Maybe you can take your mobile A%# to India and ride a camel, or better yet a magic carpet to work.

“Compare it to minimum wage in other countries and you will realize just how "liveable" it is.”

Oh you mean the overseas minimum slave wage that our countries corporations are literally tripping over each other to take advantage of? Yeah, soon we’ll all have first hand experience with that if your contorted mindset prevails.