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  WTC internal explosives wired when building was built? (Page 3)

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Topic:   WTC internal explosives wired when building was built?

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letxa2000
Senior Member


U.S. citizen in Mexico
327 posts, Dec 2003

posted 02-01-2004 10:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for letxa2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
When Lexta happens to vibe with the widely accepted version of any given situation(9/11), he automatically labels all who differ as dimwitted "conspiracy theorists" or simply wrong.

Anyone who believes in demolition is, by definition, beleiving in a conspiracy. Don't take it as an insult. If the shoe fits...

And I never called anyone dimwitted. You made that up yourself. I'm finding a lot of people here putting words in my mouth.

quote:
But inversely, when he finds himself defending the view of the minority(Mexican border), he's simply making a decision for "what's right", and NOT popular all of a sudden?

It would appear you have nothing to contribute to the 9/11 debate since you choose to focus on me rather than my 9/11 posts in this thread. But fine...

Are you not reading what I've posted? I have never defended the view of "the minority" (whatever that is) regarding the Mexican border. I have agreed in every case that illegal immigration is wrong and that our border should be secured.

Let's stick to the 9/11 topic if you have anything worthwhile to add to it.

quote:
Well, let's say that the POPULAR version of what happened on 9/11 isn't RIGHT either. That's the point I was trying to make with the analogy.

Well, you fail since I've never disagreed with the position that our borders should be strengthened. I challenge you to find a post where I suggest that I oppose a strong border. But the whole issue is really off-topic in a 9/11 demolition thread.

quote:
You keep telling me that you have a concern for our borders but yet continue to come up with more & more excuses for LAWBREAKERS.

Don't lie. Show me a post where I defended or excused lawbreakers FOR THE CRIME THEY ARE COMMITTING. I don't. Lawbreakers shoud be caught, put on trial, and/or deported as appropriate. I have never said otherwise. Where are you coming up with this literal BS? Do you make this up as you go along?

quote:
Rarely proposing a potential solution instead.

I propose we have a strong border with strong security so illegal immigration cannot occur. Understood? Everybody? Are we clear on that?

quote:
You can say that you actually "care" all day long, but you'll never convince me of it.

I won't convince you I don't care about what? You've lost me.

quote:
Not until you remove the hook from your mouth that FOX, CNN, MSNBC "news" has caught you with. You're the type that judges a book by it's cover, even from a blinding distance.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Period. I've already cited my news sources that include far more than American news outlets, including Spanish news sources that are quite critical of the U.S. and jump on just about any opportunity to criticize us. My news sources are international and multilingual.

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shatoga
Agent Provocateur


963 posts, Nov 2002

posted 02-02-2004 05:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for shatoga     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Lexta,
Thanks especially for the link with the illustration showing clearly that the building should have fallen over to the side of greater damage: http://www.construction.com/NewsCenter/Headlines/ENR/20021025b.asp
>One frame from the computer model of the initiation of the collapse of Tower 2 performed by Weidlinger Associates<

You have to really 'want to believe' to accept the bush conspiracy theory.
That's why even America's allies in NATO believ in bush complicity instead of the bush conspiracy theory.
(and they were shown 'evidence' Americans are denied access to)

However:
Lexta:
>Well, the Council on Tall Buildings disagrees with you.<

Lexta,
That source you cite was evidently created after the fact, to support the bush conspiracy theory.

>CADdigest.com was launched July 15, 2002 by TenLinks, Inc.,<

>"If it weren't for the extreme fire, I believe that the towers would still be standing today,"-The Daily Illini <
the "extreme fire" lies have been refuted by expert testimony by a NYFD chief "two fires" needing one company to fight,
and people who talked on cell phones
while bush conspiracy theorists claimed a raging inferno which melted steel beams.

Lexta,
Nobody can talk on a cell phone in temperatures hot enough to melt steel beams.
Try it for yourself!
then
Let that obvious "extreme fire" lie die the death it deserves, and argue rationally instead.

Then you cite "experts" who cannot agree
>In This article, Herman Krier, professor in mechanical and industrial engineering, says "that a flame burning jet fuel and air generates an approximate temperature of 3,500 degrees Fahrenheit."
According to Jerry Russell, Ph.D., calculating the "burn temperature of Jet-A is difficult since it depends on many outside variables but the adiabatic combustion temperature is a little over 2000 C." <

Based on my 30 years experience in Fire Protection work,
I find even the lower number not credible.
My job was to calculate the risk factors and design and supervise installation of a system to protect the structure.
The academics may have their opinions.

Their opinions are merely opinions!
Scientific method requires repeat of predictable result;
Such as actually dumping jet fuel in a structure and measuring the temperature as it combusts.
>"After the initial impact, jet fuel leaked into multiple floors, creating puddles of fuel.
"Time is the hunter," Krier said.
Different sources heated the standing fuel. As a result, the fire had a continuous fuel source and burned for a longer time — similar to the way a candle burns." -The Daily Illini
<
Lexta,
your link supports my observation that:
the volume of fuel burning is insignificant.
it all burns at the same temperature.
Just like the Illini candle explanation.

One hundred candles, each burning at the same temperature does not produce a higher temperature than one candle.
It requires a suspension of logic and science to accept that spurious "greater volume/ longer time" conspiracists' BS.

One can always find an "expert" willing to put partyline loyalty above integrity and swear to any nonsense.
That does not make their BS believable.
it just exposes them for extremists putting politics above integrity.

>"Large amounts of burning fuel were the biggest factor in the World Trade Center towers' demise last Tuesday. The impact of the plane and subsequent fires caused a "pancake effect" — each floor collapsing on the next with increasing speed.
"What happened was an extraordinary chain of events," said Abbas Aminmansour, an assistant architecture professor." -The Daily Illini<

>"The Silverstein report also concludes that fire temperatures were lower than typical "fully developed" office fires. The fires were fueled by office furniture and floor contents initially ignited by the jet fuel, which burned out quickly. Dust and debris distributed by the crashes inhibited the fires, which at the impact floors were between 750°F and 1,300°F." - McGraw-Hill Construction!< ( from your link)

The concrete in each floor slab would fail long before the steel supports failed.
As anyone actually experienced in building construction and fire science would know.
You have cited 'academics spouting nonsense', with a degree to back up the nonsense.
They have no real world knowledge to supoort their claims, nor repeatable experiments cited as basis for their claims.
Not impressed.

Lay a steel clip down on concrete and heat it until it melts into a puddle.
wear saftey glasses,
because the concrete will explode into fragments long before the steel is even glowing from the heat.

The pancaking of slabs that logically would have fragmented long before the steel failed.
Impossible!

The pancaking of the WTC towers could only occur if the slabs were still intact.
Thus heat sufficient to cause beams to fail
in not plausible.
Therefore:
The 'bush conspiracy theory' is BS!

as is:
>"The demise of the WTC as a result of the airplane impacts and subsequent fire are supported by fact." -Lexta<

Those "facts" you cite are "conservative opinion",
not 'scientific facts': (results obtainable by experiment which are consistently repeated)

"Facts" such as indestructable passports and other spurious evidence should be made available to independent investigators,
to convince those of us who prefer to let the evidence be the basis for our opinions.

Passing a lie through 'conservative's lips does not make it a 'fact'

those comments about being a pilot:
The Cessna that was flown into the Clinton White House was picked up on radar before it flew into the white House.
wolf, has claimed the radar only shows transponders.
the half truth should be laid to rest about radar and transponders.

Air traffic controllers have systems that specifically show transponders' return signals.
The military has radar that shows every piece of space junk in orbit, every flock of birds migrating, every "hijacked" jumbo jet.

The half truth that the hijacked jets transponders were turned off, thus making them radar invisible is BS.

Just like the rest of the 'conservative opinion' on which the bush conspiracy theory is based.

You have to really 'want to believe' to accept the bush conspiracy theory.

That's why even America's allies in NATO belive in bush complicity instead of the bush conspiracy theory.
(and they were shown 'evidence' Americans are denied access to)

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KNOW-THIS
Senior Member


629 posts, Jul 2003

posted 02-02-2004 07:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KNOW-THIS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"I won't convince you I don't care about what? You've lost me."

Caring about our country, the one you don't even live in presently. But I won't continue this debate in this thread from here on. Besides I don't have the time to point out the numerous occasions that you tried to diminish the impact of this parasite type invasion, atleast at the moment. If I recall correctly, comparing it to someone caught speeding for Christ's sake. And I ask you, what makes your news sources anymore credible than anyone else's? That's your favorite argument to fall back on it seems. Being mainstream doesn't correlate to being truthful, fair or without pressure from the administration to be quiet about certain issues. CNN has openly admitted to being intimidated by the government into putting a lid on particular coverage.

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letxa2000
Senior Member


U.S. citizen in Mexico
327 posts, Dec 2003

posted 02-02-2004 09:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for letxa2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shatoga:
Thanks especially for the link with the illustration showing clearly that the building should have fallen over to the side of greater damage: [URL=http://www.construction. com/NewsCenter/Headlines/ENR/20021025b.asp]http://www.construction.com/NewsCenter/Headlines/ENR/20021025b.asp[/URL]
>One frame from the computer model of the initiation of the collapse of Tower 2 performed by Weidlinger Associates<

I believe that frame is consistent with what we all saw when the tower began to fell. The top tipped a little but considering the height it did not tip over like a glass of milk. This is both logical, consistent with what we saw, and does not require demolition. After all, wouldn't demolition have caused the building to fall perfectly into its footprint and not tip over at all?

quote:
You have to really 'want to believe' to accept the bush conspiracy theory.
That's why even America's allies in NATO believ in bush complicity instead of the bush conspiracy theory. (and they were shown 'evidence' Americans are denied access to)

The evidence I provided in my last post shows conclusively that nothing more than building damage and/or fire was necessary to bring down the towers. There is no need to believe in demolition.

Please provide links to legitimate proof that NATO partners believe Bush complicity in 9/11.

quote:
That source you cite was evidently created after the fact, to support the bush conspiracy theory.

Yeah, so many sources, so many organizations, so many engineers... all involved in the conspiracy. Right.

quote:
>"If it weren't for the extreme fire, I believe that the towers would still be standing today,"-The Daily Illini <
the "extreme fire" lies have been refuted by expert testimony by a NYFD chief "two fires" needing one company to fight,
and people who talked on cell phones
while bush conspiracy theorists claimed a raging inferno which melted steel beams.

So a single person--albeit an NYFD chief--refutes all the expert opinion on jet fuel combuestion and engineering expertise that has weighed in on the topic? I respect the NYFD but that doesn't mean one chief--that probably has never battled Jet Fuel fires, and certainly not on this magnitude--is right.

quote:
then let that obvious "extreme fire" lie die the death it deserves, and argue rationally instead.

You have provided no links to refute all the links I provided from various experts regarding the collapses yet you ask me to just forget it because you said so? Interesting. Provide some good, solid links to refute mine and we'll go from there.

quote:
Then you cite "experts" who cannot agree >In This article, Herman Krier, professor in mechanical and industrial engineering, says "that a flame burning jet fuel and air generates an approximate temperature of 3,500 degrees Fahrenheit."
According to Jerry Russell, Ph.D., calculating the "burn temperature of Jet-A is difficult since it depends on many outside variables but the adiabatic combustion temperature is a little over 2000 C." <

They don't agree? 3500F=1926C. That's only a 74C disagreement. That's far less disagreement than most of the conspiracy theories have between each other.

quote:
Based on my 30 years experience in Fire Protection work, I find even the lower number not credible.

You've dealt with burning Jet-A fuel? And rather than just cite your experience, could you provide me with a link that suggests otherwise? "According to Ted Krauthammer, professor of civil and environmental engineering at Penn State University, it has been estimated that the jet fuel fire in the towers ranged from 1000 to 3000 degrees Fahrenheit." (ArchitectureWeek). "Herman Krier, professor in mechanical and industrial engineering, says "that a flame burning jet fuel and air generates an approximate temperature of 3,500 degrees Fahrenheit" (url=http://www.dailyillini.com/sep01/sep20/news/stories/news_story02.shtml]Daily Illinois[/url]). "According to Jerry Russell, Ph.D., calculating the "burn temperature of Jet-A is difficult since it depends on many outside variables but the adiabatic combustion temperature is a little over 2000 C." (Jerry Russell, Ph.D.).

Do you have any references to refute these three professors and doctors in their field besides your "30 years experience in fire protection work?" A couple legitimate links would be fine.

quote:
My job was to calculate the risk factors and design and supervise installation of a system to protect the structure. The academics may have their opinions. Their opinions are merely opinions! Scientific method requires repeat of predictable result;
Such as actually dumping jet fuel in a structure and measuring the temperature as it combusts.

And you did that with Jet-A fuel in the WTC? What exactly is your basis for calling three professors statement of facts "opinions?" What is it that should convince me to ignore 3 experts--3 professors--in the field and believe you? You've provided absolutely no proof.

quote:
your link supports my observation that: the volume of fuel burning is insignificant. it all burns at the same temperature. Just like the Illini candle explanation.

I have a hard time believing you are a fire expert if you think that in any given fire every part is burning at the same temperature. Sorry, I'll go with the explanation given by the Ph.Ds.

quote:
One hundred candles, each burning at the same temperature does not produce a higher temperature than one candle.

But it does provide that temperature over a greater area, thus inflicting more distributed heat damage.

quote:
One can always find an "expert" willing to put partyline loyalty above integrity and swear to any nonsense.
That does not make their BS believable.
it just exposes them for extremists putting politics above integrity.

The problem is that virtually all experts agree with the publically accepted version of events. They may debate the exact mechanisms that caused the collapse just as experts can debate exactly how the Titanic sunk, but they agree that some combination of structural failure caused by the impacts along with damage from the fire lead to the collapse without resorting to far-out demolition theories.

But if you are asking me to believe that the vast majority of the engineers, professors, and other experts worldwide are agreeing with the publically accepted version of events because of "partyline loyalty" then you are asking me to believe a fairy tale.

quote:
>"The Silverstein report also concludes that fire temperatures were lower than typical "fully developed" office fires. The fires were fueled by office furniture and floor contents initially ignited by the jet fuel, which burned out quickly. Dust and debris distributed by the crashes inhibited the fires, which at the impact floors were between 750°F and 1,300°F." - McGraw-Hill Construction!< ( from your link)

Even if you accept the lower 750-1500F temperature cited in this link, according to Architecture Week the steel would have already lost between 50% and 90% of its strength! Seems consistent with steel losing its strength and leading to the collapse.

quote:
The concrete in each floor slab would fail long before the steel supports failed.
As anyone actually experienced in building construction and fire science would know.

So perhaps you could explain why in the wake of 9/11 they are starting to use more concrete in NYC office buildings? ""Concrete is absolutely safer," agreed Curtis Massey, president of Virginia Beach-based Massey Enterprises Inc., the largest disaster planning firm in North America. Massey, a firefighter for a quarter of a century, develops plans with property owners and managers to minimize the loss of life and property during fires, explosions, earthquakes, etc. His firm has contracts in 65 cities in the U.S. and Canada. In New York City he counts among his clients Brookfield Property Corp., Citicorp, The Durst Organization, the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co., Reckson Associates Realty Corp., RFR Realty LLC and Trizec Properties Inc."Concrete is always going to perform better under fire conditions than steel"

I guess that's one more expert with real world experience and a huge company in the field that I should ignore and just listen to you, right?

quote:
You have cited 'academics spouting nonsense', with a degree to back up the nonsense. They have no real world knowledge to supoort their claims, nor repeatable experiments cited as basis for their claims.
Not impressed.

And you have cited nothing at all. Even less impressive.

quote:
Lay a steel clip down on concrete and heat it until it melts into a puddle.

No-one is saying that the steel melted into a puddle. Just that it lost significant strength in the fire. You haven't refuted that.

quote:
Those "facts" you cite are "conservative opinion", not 'scientific facts': (results obtainable by experiment which are consistently repeated)

And where are any of your "facts?" You provide none to refute my links to many experts in the field. And while I haven't investigated this aspect of it, a large percentage of professors in U.S. universities are liberal so I doubt these professors are just trying to help Bush out. And don't forget the guy with real world experience that I just linked to above. Since you seem to have no respect or trust for academics, perhaps you'll believe this guy with "real world" experience.

quote:
The Cessna that was flown into the Clinton White House was picked up on radar before it flew into the white House. wolf, has claimed the radar only shows transponders. the half truth should be laid to rest about radar and transponders. Air traffic controllers have systems that specifically show transponders' return signals.

ATC radars show a blip that shows where a plane is (longitude and latitude superimposed on their radar screen). They do not know the altitude of the plane unless the transponder is on.

When I've flown I've sometimes had a malfunctioning transponder--ATC would tell me I wasn't transmitting my altitude and to please "squawk" (press a button on the transponder that specifically transmits the altitude on my request rather than waiting for ATC radar to request it). When my altitude still didn't appear to them they simply asked me to read them my altitude.

quote:
The military has radar that shows every piece of space junk in orbit, every flock of birds migrating, every "hijacked" jumbo jet.

I cannot comment on the state of the art military radar, but that hardly seems relevant since it's the FAA that reports hijacked planes to NORAD. Prior to 9/11, NORAD "defended against intrusion in our air space from outside, not inside.". NORAD might know where every plane and bird is, but it doesn't know where each are going (at least prior to 9/11). Flight plans were filed with the FAA, not NORAD.

quote:
The half truth that the hijacked jets transponders were turned off, thus making them radar invisible is BS.

I don't know of anyone that has said the planes were invisible. If it were that easy to be radar invisible we wouldn't need Stealth fighters. I believe the 9/11 planes were even visible on Flight Explorer software. But their altitudes were unknown by civilian ATC and that is definitely true. Civilian radars depend on transponders to determine altitude. The radars essentially "ask" the plane its altitude, and the plane replies.

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Wolf_Larson
Senior Member


The Sea
348 posts, Aug 2003

posted 02-02-2004 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wolf_Larson   Visit Wolf_Larson's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, I have been trying to ignore this thread, but you have sucked me back in.


quote:
Originally posted by shatoga:


>"If it weren't for the extreme fire, I believe that the towers would still be standing today,"-The Daily Illini <
the "extreme fire" lies have been refuted by expert testimony by a NYFD chief "two fires" needing one company to fight,
and people who talked on cell phones
while bush conspiracy theorists claimed a raging inferno which melted steel beams.

Lexta,
Nobody can talk on a cell phone in temperatures hot enough to melt steel beams.
Try it for yourself!
Then Let that obvious "extreme fire" lie die the death it deserves, and argue rationally instead.


Oh, please, get rational yourself. Since when is the maximum temperature of a fire distributed evenly throughout a compartment? Furthermore, being in the stair tower is a big difference from being in the middle of a fire floor.

In addition, it may very well be that by the time the fire chief reached the floors, the maximum temperature had already been passed, the point is, that the damage had already been done, both by the initial impact and by the subsequent fire. It is not unknown for significant buckling of structural steel to occur during the cooling phase of a fire. In either event, the progressive failure of the structural members was well underway by that point. It may have started slowly (at the point of impact), but it grew in intensity as the loads were transferred from one damaged structural member to the next, until the entire floor failed at once.

quote:

Then you cite "experts" who cannot agree
>In This article, Herman Krier, professor in mechanical and industrial engineering, says "that a flame burning jet fuel and air generates an approximate temperature of 3,500 degrees Fahrenheit."
According to Jerry Russell, Ph.D., calculating the "burn temperature of Jet-A is difficult since it depends on many outside variables but the adiabatic combustion temperature is a little over 2000 C." <


2000 degrees Celsius = 3632 degree Fahrenheit. A “disagreement” of less than 4%.

quote:

Based on my 30 years experience in Fire Protection work,
I find even the lower number not credible.
My job was to calculate the risk factors and design and supervise installation of a system to protect the structure.
The academics may have their opinions.

Their opinions are merely opinions!
Scientific method requires repeat of predictable result;
Such as actually dumping jet fuel in a structure and measuring the temperature as it combusts.



Tests of “standard” compartment fire situations have reliably produced flame temperatures of at least 1200 C.


”In May 1996 a series of four furnished cubicles were burned during the CAC Seminar at San Jose, with data on temperatures collected via thermal imaging infrared video. In 1998, a series of eight furnished cubicles were burned by the Washington State Patrol Arson Unit, with thermocouple array data collection. . . Temperatures of 1800-2000F were measured in post-flashover fires, extending from floor to ceiling.”

source


quote:


>"After the initial impact, jet fuel leaked into multiple floors, creating puddles of fuel.
"Time is the hunter," Krier said.
Different sources heated the standing fuel. As a result, the fire had a continuous fuel source and burned for a longer time — similar to the way a candle burns." -The Daily Illini
<
Lexta,
your link supports my observation that:
the volume of fuel burning is insignificant.
it all burns at the same temperature.
Just like the Illini candle explanation.

One hundred candles, each burning at the same temperature does not produce a higher temperature than one candle.
It requires a suspension of logic and science to accept that spurious "greater volume/ longer time" conspiracists' BS.



Shatoga, you continually fail to grasp the difference between temperature and heat. If I have a single candle in front of me, I can pass my hand through the flame quickly and without serious harm. Would you be willing to try the same thing with 100 candles?

I am surprised that in all of your experience in designing fire sprinkler systems, you never studied concepts like fuel load, flashover, standard time and temperature graphs, etc.

quote:


One can always find an "expert" willing to put partyline loyalty above integrity and swear to any nonsense.
That does not make their BS believable.
it just exposes them for extremists putting politics above integrity.



Like you?

quote:


The concrete in each floor slab would fail long before the steel supports failed.
As anyone actually experienced in building construction and fire science would know.
You have cited 'academics spouting nonsense', with a degree to back up the nonsense.
They have no real world knowledge to supoort their claims, nor repeatable experiments cited as basis for their claims.

Not impressed.


The typical contempt of the uneducated for those who have devoted their lives to study.

quote:

The pancaking of the WTC towers could only occur if the slabs were still intact.
Thus heat sufficient to cause beams to fail in not plausible. Therefore:
The 'bush conspiracy theory' is BS!


You are loosing it here, Shatoga. No one says that all of the floors in the building were on fire. Once the initial floor failed, the weight of the, until then, intact floors above it caused the “pancake” effect on the floors below it.

quote:


wolf, has claimed the radar only shows transponders.
the half truth should be laid to rest about radar and transponders.


Wait a minute, I don’t recall ever saying anything about transponders. I never participated in that discussion.

quote:

Air traffic controllers have systems that specifically show transponders' return signals.
The military has radar that shows every piece of space junk in orbit, every flock of birds migrating, every "hijacked" jumbo jet.

The half truth that the hijacked jets transponders were turned off, thus making them radar invisible is BS.


I believe the point was that they were, for all practical purposes, invisible to ATC

BTW, don’t forget that at that time there was a large commercial airport operating within a few miles of the Pentagon and White House.

quote:

You have to really 'want to believe' to accept the bush conspiracy theory.


I think it is the other way around. You are so desperate to validate your own hatred of this country that you are willing to accept every theory that supports your viewpoint, no matter how crackpot it is.

OOPS, I see that Lexta made many of the same points.


[Edited 1 times, lastly by Wolf_Larson on 02-02-2004]

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KNOW-THIS
Senior Member


629 posts, Jul 2003

posted 02-02-2004 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KNOW-THIS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"If I have a single candle in front of me, I can pass my hand through the flame quickly and without serious harm. Would you be willing to try the same thing with 100 candles?"

Depending on how far apart they were spaced out, I just might.

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letxa2000
Senior Member


U.S. citizen in Mexico
327 posts, Dec 2003

posted 02-02-2004 01:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for letxa2000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A little more follow-up information that may help some people judge the credibility of the author of the article posted by Mech. Apparently he has been in and out of mental institutions (which he admits), is building flying saucers for the government, recommended that the Joint Chiefs build Star Trek style transporters, and his scientific credentials are pretty much "in his own mind" (although Lebreton disputes this).

Anyway, feel free to consider this a little more background information about the source of this latest information regarding the 9/11 conspiracy and which some people are actually defending, for some unknown reason.

An Introduction from Paul LeBreton to e-gold list

Subject: An Introduction from Paul LeBreton to e-gold list
From: "Paul LeBreton"
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 02:54:09 -0500

An Introduction from Paul LeBreton

Greetings e-gold list members...

The President of e-gold suggested that I might share my on-going "gold adventures" with you as these occur...

I am an e-gold client and expecting trillions of troy ounces of e-gold in my e-gold account this coming year for my various scientific & philanthrophic projects:

I will "cut & past" a plain text version of my "just mailed" letter to the Joint Chiefs of Staff at The USA Pentagon to the bottom of this e-mail to share my projects with you, which will be funded by Saint Germain, my mentor; who intends to give me the exact coordinates for a vastly large cache of gold on the ocean's bottom to recover in this next year ...to fund my projects !

Ashtar Command New Year's Message to Joint Chiefs...

January 1st, 2003 AD
The Joint Chiefs of Staff
The Pentagon, Washington, DC 20301

A New Year's Message

Dear Sirs.

First of all...Thank You All for Standing Firm against the Dark Forces over the past year: As always... Each of us has choices to make on any given day; and we of Ashtar Command Commend You for making the Morally Correct ones !

Your Esteemed Spiritual Selves; Along with The Esteemed Admiral Sananda Kamura & Ashtar Gabriel Sherone were Most Gracious in Awarding both my-self and Dove of Oneness with our 5th Stars ! As joint Officers of Ashtar Command, The Pentagon, and The Galactic Federations we are humbled; and we will continue to serve as long as we are needed & wanted !

As Dean of Star*School Technological University of New Mexico; and a U.S.A.F. Space Command General; I will oversee the construction of two basic models of Flying Saucers over the next several years; at our soon-to-be Manufacturing and Distribution Center to be built in the State of Nebraska. The Star*School shall be located just above the Cibola National Forest in the State of New Mexico; and shall be a Charter School for hand's-on Education in Advanced Technologies !

I am at this time proposing that The United States Air Force build large two tier Geodomes at each U.S.A.F. and non-aggressive Ally Nation's Air Bases with teleportation platforms; such as upon Star Trek's Enterprise Starship - Linking all of these Air Bases of Earth Together ! ... United We Stand !!!

These two floor Geodomes should have classrooms on the ground floors and have Command Centers upon the upper floors.

If I have done my job well as a Concept Engineer; I should have by now got your Imaginations Engaged and your Keyboards Clicking !!!

Do not to hesitate to write or telephone me for any and all assistance.

In my many Futures & Concepts Directorate duties & responsibilities!!!

Wishing All of Our Military A Most Challenging & Exciting New Year !

General Robert Paul LeBreton, USAF / AC
Robert "Paul" LeBreton, PhD
Star*School Technological University http://angelfire.com/stars2/starnet/index.html
2901 State Hwy 6, HC 77 Box 42,
Laguna, New Mexico 87026-9701 USA
1-(505)-836-7534
wizzard9@earthlink.net

Star*School Spiritual Sciences Society,
A Tax Exempt Corporation Sole
( Unincorporated Eleemosynary Spiritual Society )
Robert Paul LeBreton, Dean of Education
2901 State Hwy 6, HC 77 Box 42
Laguna, New Mexico, 87026-9701 USA
Phone: (505) 836-7534
Email: wizzard9@earthlink.net

LeBreton a Mental Case

Feb. 28, 2003

A source who prefers to be anonymous reports that LeBreton has been committed to mental institutions before. Little alien like beings appear to him to reveal the secrets of the universe. He writes multi-thousand dollar checks with no backing, honestly believing that the universe will cover it. The source has copies of several of these checks. He states that LeBreton's intentions are noble enough, but that his scientific credentials are mostly in his own mind only. He has written letters to this source dubbing him with an honorary doctorate.

Paul LeBreton's rebuttal:

> A source who prefers to be anonymous reports that LeBreton has been committed to mental institutions before.

Yes, I have had several run-ins with Mental Institutions, as a great many people who "think outside of the box" and who are otherwise geniuses, have had... No shame or secret there; I simply "do not fit in" to Mainstream thinking or Social Norms... Other than that; my brain works just fine !

> Little alien like beings appear to him to reveal the secrets of the universe.

Well, folks ... I have met extra-terrestrials in person; I don't deny it ...But then so have Dr. Steven Greer & Dr. Richard Boylan of The Disclosure Project and a Great Many other NASA types who I know and correspond with ...Like I said before; I'm not Socially Mainstream ! Aliens are a part of Greater Reality !

> He writes multi-thousand dollar checks with no backing, honestly believing that the universe will cover it.

That's why the Mental Hospitals have been in my life...When I don't take my mental stabilizer medications; I get manic, and try to be Santa to all of my friends ! Well...Fortunately the inventions I am a party to, will eventually permit me to "Play Santa" to the entire earth and gift Mankind with abundant Free Energy !

> He states that LeBreton's intentions are noble enough, but that his scientific credentials are mostly in his own mind only.

I have a whole wall covered with Certificates, etc... They are not a figment, my friends !

> He has written letters to this source dubbing him with an honorary doctorate.

And this ANONYMOUS Source is so ungrateful that he turns on me ?!

Salt Lake City Tribune

AM Robert "Paul" LeBreton; an Ashtar Commander and moderator of Ashtar Space Command Communications List. My wife and I live on a 3-acre ranch located 35 miles West of Albuquerque, in The Badlands of New Mexico, USA... and I am a Liaison Officer to The Pentagon & N.A.S.A.

In my multi-dimensional form; I have been with Ashtar Command for 4,000 years. Prior to that I was a Scribe on the planet Lasmur, which orbits the star Anitak in Orion's Belt...

... to which someone replied: "Hmmm, someone has been applying the sunscreen orally again"

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Wolf_Larson
Senior Member


The Sea
348 posts, Aug 2003

posted 02-02-2004 01:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wolf_Larson   Visit Wolf_Larson's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KNOW-THIS:
"If I have a single candle in front of me, I can pass my hand through the flame quickly and without serious harm. Would you be willing to try the same thing with 100 candles?"

Depending on how far apart they were spaced out, I just might.



Know-This, consider this:

The total BTU value for 1,000 gallons of jet A fuel is approximately 100 million BTU.

To put this in perspective, that if you had a pool of water 200 feet by 200 feet, 40 feet thick at 32 degrees F (water, not ice). That would be enough energy to boil all of that water.

If all of the fuel burned off in a few minutes, where did all of this heat go?


BTW, good post Lexta

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Wolf_Larson on 02-02-2004]

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Wolf_Larson
Senior Member


The Sea
348 posts, Aug 2003

posted 02-02-2004 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wolf_Larson   Visit Wolf_Larson's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by halva:
In any constitutional democratic state of Western Europe the government would have fallen after a fiasco like 9/11. Even a British government could not have survived something like that. The Queen would have called the head of another party to form a government and if nobody could there would have been elections.



[Edited 1 times, lastly by halva on 02-01-2004]



I guess that is why the United States is superior to the “constitutional democratic states of Western Europe.” We don’t panic and try to change horses in mid-stream.

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KNOW-THIS
Senior Member


629 posts, Jul 2003

posted 02-02-2004 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KNOW-THIS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wolf, continue on with what you're saying. I have not been following this thread all that closely so I'm not sure where you're going with this. I was more or less just jerking your chain with my last comment. Where do you figure the heat went and what are you disputing?

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halva
Senior Member

Greece
761 posts, Dec 2002

posted 02-02-2004 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for halva   Email halva   Visit halva's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wolf Larson (and friends). Start getting used to the idea now that you are going into the dustbin of history (trashcan of history, in American). You, not Americans in general.


[Edited 1 times, lastly by halva on 02-02-2004]

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Wolf_Larson
Senior Member


The Sea
348 posts, Aug 2003

posted 02-02-2004 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wolf_Larson   Visit Wolf_Larson's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is simple really. You have to remember that there is a difference between temperature and heat. Although they are closely related, they are not the same thing. It is sometimes difficult to understand this.

In a typical office fire scenario, very high temperatures (up to 2000 F) can be reached fairly easily, especially if a condition known as “flashover” occurs where basically the entire fuel load of a space is burning. However, even though the temperatures can get very high in a typical office fire situation, severe structural damages is rare. This is because the heat output of the burning materials is low enough and the thermal inertia of the building is high enough for the building structure to dissipate that heat away form the source fast enough so that a widespread failure will not occur.

The WTC situation, was not typical in many ways. On top of the physical damage from the actual impact, you also had a much greater fuel load on the floors than had ever been considered in even the wildest nightmares of the designers.

A typical office fire develops and spreads slowly; in this case burning jet fuel set the entire floor aflame within seconds.

As a side note, in addition to the jet fuel, the fuel load of a typical office today is much different from when the building was designed. Synthetic materials and plastics in the furnishings, computers and carpeting have replaced the starker office environment prevalent in the late 1960’s.

Where did all of that heat go? Sure some of it escaped out the side of the building through the impact holes in the form of hot gas, but not all of it did. Any heat that did not escape out of the building had to heat something. As the beams and columns heated they expanded. (note that in the case of the composite floors, the floor joists would have expanded at a different rate than the concrete). As the beams and columns expanded, the stresses and loads that they were designed to support changed.

In addition, there was a redistribution of the building loads as a result of the impact damage. Thus some of the columns were probably at or over their design limits. Then, as the fire heated these structural members, they lost strength.

Eventually through the heat of the fire and the creep and shift of the redistributed weight of the building floors above, some of the columns and joists began to fail. The loads formerly supported by these columns and joists were transferred to the adjacent columns and joists. Eventually a point was reached when the remaining columns and joists did not have the necessary strength to support the building. At this point it probably no longer mattered what the actual temperature of the fire floor was. It could have been 20 below zero on that floor, failure and collapse was inevitable.


This is what Shatoga keeps missing when he talks about the fire chief’s last transmission. At that point it probably did not matter what the temperature of the floor was, the collapse had already started, it just started too slowly at first for anyone to realize what was happening.

In actuality, the collapse probably started when the planes hit the buildings. The fires accelerated the process, but it is entirely possible that the buildings would have come down eventually even with no fires.

In spite of the claims that the building were designed to withstand the impact of a plane, I think that the construction style was ultimately flawed and that the impacts alone would have been enough to eventually bring them down. This is based on the fact that the top of the second tower started to tilt immediately after the impact. This is a clear indication that the building loads had shifted In addition, the shift put more of the building’s weight directly on those columns that were least able to support it, the ones already damaged by the impact.


[Edited 2 times, lastly by Wolf_Larson on 02-02-2004]

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KNOW-THIS
Senior Member


629 posts, Jul 2003

posted 02-02-2004 05:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KNOW-THIS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WOLF- I'm in no way in a postion to comment on any of that. I will agree with you on one thing though. "The WTC situation, was not typical in many ways."

You've got that right......

The whole scenario seems twisted.

I still cannot believe that the pentagon is as unprotected as it is. It would seem to me that critical places like that would have provisions for shooting down an aircraft. Why wouldn't they?

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Boomer Chick
Senior Member


Colorado
608 posts, Sep 2003

posted 02-02-2004 10:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Boomer Chick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Calculations on the Possible Use of Thermite
to Melt Sections of the WTC Core Columns
by D. P. Grimmer
Version 1.0, November 23rd 2003
Abstract
Anomalies involving the collapse of WTC buildings on 9-11 are discussed from the perspective of possible controlled demolition implosion rather than of aircraft impact and fuel-fire damage. Considered is the possible use of thermite to melt sections of the columns of the WTC towers inner cores, thus aiding in their collapse. This paper will discuss the structure of the WTC core columns, and estimate the mass of metal to be melted; calculate the sensible and latent heat energy needed for melting this mass; discuss the nature and specific energies of the thermite reaction; estimate the mass and volume of thermite necessary to provide the energies for melting; and discuss the possible locations where such thermite could be placed to cause melting, both internal and external to a core column.


Introduction
Of the events of 11 September '01, perhaps the most dramatic were the collapses of the WTC towers. Re-played repeatedly on TV, the images of the collapsing towers and their pyroclastic clouds of debris are seared into our memories.

What immediately struck some observers, this author included, is how much these collapses resembled a controlled demolition. Indeed, this was the first reaction of V. Romero of New Mexico Tech, until he recanted days later [Ref. (1)]. There has been much discussion on the internet of the observed anomalies associated with the WTC building collapses (including the delayed collapse of the unstruck WTC7). Interesting sites can be found at www.serendipity.li, www.americanfreepress.net, www.misternet.org, www.911-strike.com, www.plaguepuppy.net, www.whatreallyhappened.com and many others ( a google search is always useful).

One site deals directly with aircraft impact and fuel-fire physics [Ref. (2)]. The very anomalous case of the WTC7 building collapse was archived at Ref. (3); especially interesting are the observations by the inspection engineer at WTC7 of evidence for vaporized steel. As always, information about controversial events like 911 must be approached with some caution, and are not to be taken at face value. Careful analysis and appraisal is necessary. The internet has gained a reputation as a refuge of "conspiracy theorists," but recent events (e.g., the falsehoods told by US officials leading up to the Iraq war) have shown that "reputable" media are not to be trusted. They may themselves be regarded as purveyors of "official" conspiracy theories. This present paper hopes to achieve some level of objectivity about a very controversial subject.

Total objectivity is of course impossible. Subjectively, for this author, several subevents of the WTC collapses stand out: the reported seismic spikes associated with the collapses; the observed near free-fall times of collapse; the pyroclastic clouds of debris; and the pools of molten steel found in the basement of the WTC tower complex, steel still warm weeks after 9-11. Analysis of the seismic spikes indicate that the seismic spikes correlate with the collapses themselves rather than any pre-collapse explosion [Ref. (4)].

Calculations done by the author correlated the collapse energies with the seismic signal of explosions at a quarry in the vicinity of the seismic observatory. These calculations indicate that the seismic spikes of the WTC events represent energies close to those of the collapses themselves (see Appendix A for these seismic energy correlation calculations). A sole video clip purported to show, by video image shaking, evidence of a pre-collapse WTC2 explosion is not conclusive. A video with shake-free periods for several minutes before and after collapse is not available. Therefore, wind flutter has not been disproved as a cause of camera shaking. A second video from another perspective is not available to show pre-collapse shaking temporally correlated with the first video. The existence of such a second video from an independent source would make such video evidence more credible [Ref. (5)]. From these observations, the author has concluded that there is no firm evidence of pre-collapse explosions that left seismic signatures.

[A brief note here about the mathematical notation used in this paper: subscripts, superscripts and exotic math symbols have not been used. Unlike most word processor programs, most email formats do not support these fonts. So, for example, ten to the nth power is denoted here by 10+n; the square root of N is SQRT(N); a quantity N with the exponent n (i.e., N to the nth power) is given by N exp(n); an so forth. This was done so individuals can communicate about this paper in any common email format].

The observed near free-fall times of the WTC towers (and WTC7) were a dramatic signature of a controlled demolition. (The articles at http://members.fortunecity.com/911 are a valuable resource for presenting and then challenging the "official" explanation for WTC collapses). Measured times are all around 10 seconds, which is close to calculated free-fall time, indicating the tower floors fell without much impediment. They essentially fell into air [Ref. (6)]. The theory put forth by T. Eagar of MIT and other "establishment" engineers is that while no steel members actually melted or failed, the floor assemblies, bolted at their joists to the outer walls and inner core structures, did fail [Ref. (7)]. The floor joists attachment bolts were weakened and gave way, twisting sideways and allowing the initial floor to "unzipper" itself all the way round and collapse to the floor below. The remaining floors then pancaked all the way down. Never mind that floor joist cross-members, placed to resist twisting, and additional support structures were not included in the MIT/FEMA/NOVA calculations and presentations (nor was the inner core collapse mechanism explained at all).

Consider the following: if the pancaking effect caused the total building failure, why is it that no video of either of the WTC collapses shows any sign of stutter between floor collapses, which should have been very apparent especially in the first few floors of collapse when the speed of gravitational collapse was small? Consider also that apologists for the official conspiracy theory propose that 30% of the gravitational collapse energy was necessary to create the pyroclastic cloud of debris: that is, in their own analysis, this energy came out of the gravitational energy. This means that the time of fall would have been slowed further than what was observed. When a body of mass m falls from a height h, acted upon by gravitational acceleration g, it converts its potential energy PE = m x g x h into kinetic energy KE = (1/2) x m x (v exp2). Here h = (1/2) x g x (t exp2), t = time of fall, and v =g x t, where v = velocity. Removal of 30% of the PE to pulverize concrete essentially reduces the amount of energy available from falling, effectively reducing the gravitational acceleration to something less than g.

Substituting, in the above equations we have (1.0 - 0.3) x PE = 0.7 x PE = m x g' x h, where PE, m and h are as before and g' = the effective gravitational acceleration. Hence, comparing terms for PE, g' = 0.7 g. The time of collapse under g' will also increase. If we let the effective collapse time be t', then comparing terms for constant h, (1/2) x g x (t exp2) = (1/2) x g' x (t' exp2) =
(1/2) x 0.7g x (t' exp2). Hence, (t exp2) = 0.7 x (t' exp2), or (t/t') = SQRT (0.7) = 0.837. Or, t' = 1.195 t.

Now the observed time t = 10 seconds (a free fall time, the fastest possible time under g = 9.8 m/sec/sec = 32 ft/sec/sec = 32 ft/s exp2). For the cloud debris creation to absorb 30% of the gravitational energy, the observed time of fall would be 10s x 1.195, or almost 12 seconds. This long a collapse time was observed by no one. Clearly, there are serious flaws in the official explanation/conspiracy theory.

The implication from the above is that there were major energy sources other than gravitational involved in the WTC towers collapses. Certainly that is the conclusion of J. Hoffman in his thorough discussion of the north WTC tower dust cloud [Ref. (8)]. By calculating the major sources and sinks observed, particularly the sink of the pyroclastic cloud expansion, Hoffman establishes that a large amount of energy had to be available to drive that expansion, in a (minimum) range of 2,706,000 kWh to 11,724,000 kWh (see his Summary table). Hoffman does not propose an energy source to balance that sink. In Appendix B, an estimate, for discussion purposes only, of the amount of thermite-equivalent to provide this energy source is discussed. It is large, but physically possible.

A discussion of the melted steel found at the base of the WTC complex, not explained by any official, forms the bulk of the remainder of this paper. The following discussion explores the possibility of whether it is possible to get sufficient volume of a relatively slow-reacting chemical compound, like thermite, either on or inside the inner columns to melt a section of them or otherwise weaken them to allow for the inner core to collapse. As Mark Loizeaux of Controlled Demolition, Inc., commenting on the pools of molten steel he observed at the bases of the towers' elevator shafts, said: "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure" [Ref. (9)]. Controlled Demolition, Inc., incidentally was the company contracted to remove the debris from both the WTC and from the 1995 bombing of the Murrah building in OKC.

To summarize so far: the discussion in the text above and in Appendix A indicates that the energy of the seismic signal (best viewed as a semi-logarithmic plot) and the gravitational collapse are very close to being the same. This coupled with the fact that there is only one short video clip allegedly showing shaking before collapse of one of the towers leads an objective observer to conclude that there is no actual proof that the seismic "spike" signal is nothing more than building collapse. This is not to say that the seismic signal is 100% guaranteed to be non-explosion related, just that there is no firm evidence so far for the alleged massive explosion. That is, this is not an area on which to stake a lot of credence. The seismic event must be regarded as a "red herring" unless a second, longer video showing the same behavior appears.

The free-fall times and pools of molten steel are entirely different matters. They are a matter of public record, observed by many individuals. So we have evidence of molten steel in the basement; the FEMA report saying molten steel was not to blame, just weakened floor joist bolts; collapse times close to free fall; no real record of a massive explosion (although numerous claims of sounds of smaller explosions and observations of demolition squibs). The immediate conjecture supported by direct observation is the following: controlled demolition, characterized by a (relatively) non-explosive, huge energy release necessary to melt (some) steel. M. Rivero of whatreallyhappened.com and others have proposed the use of thermite, familiar to those of us who had the high school chemistry course with an impressive thermite demonstration. So the question arises: can one get enough thermite close enough to melt sections of the inner core columns, as part of a controlled demolition scenario? The following calculations in this paper indeed do show that it is possible (and I stress possible). Until simple chemical reactants like thermite can be discarded there is really no need to invoke the use of highly speculative and sophisticated devices like thermobaric bombs and scalar EM weapons.

Melting of WTC Inner Core Columns
Evidence of molten steel was found at the very base of the WTC towers, and is a matter of public record. This present study is by no means exhaustive. It is intended as a first attempt to test the possibility that the core columns could have been melted by a known chemical compound. Thermite was chosen as the reactive chemical compound because it is well understood, and is used commercially to weld steel parts (e.g. train rail sections in situ). Other more sophisticated chemical compounds with higher energy densities, by mass and/or volume, could be used in future calculations. Broad assumptions will be made, to get rough estimates of relevant parameters.

Structure of WTC Columns and Their Metal Mass
The best on-line discussion resource found for these calculations was at Ref. (10). According to this source the inner core consisted of from 44 to 47 box columns (the exact number and layout is not known; the architectural firm had not released the construction drawings). The dimensions of the columns reduced in size with increasing height, changing to I-beams above the 85th floor. The above website article assumes (generously) that each core box column has the following (average) X-section: 12"wide x 36"deep x 2' thick. The article goes on to calculate the X-sectional area of steel as 192 in2. However, this is in error in that the corners are double-counted, giving a larger x-section than there actually is. If w = box column width, d = depth, and t = thickness, then the X-sectional steel area is given by

A = [d x t + (w-2 x t) x t] x 2. For d = 36", t = 2" and w = 12", then

A = [36" x 2" + (12"-2 x 2") x 2] x 2 = 176 in2 = 1.222 ft2.

Floor height was 12ft, so we choose for discussion sake, a 12' high box column in these calculations. Note that multiple floors could have had thermite-type compounds placed there. Also, no more than a foot portion, rather than a full 12 ft of column would be necessary to collapse that floor. Also, complete melt of a column portion is not necessary to cause collapse. So, per floor, per column there is a steel volume V = 12' x 1.222 ft2 = 14.67 ft3. Also, note that the internal X-sectional area of a box column is given by

Aint = [d-(2 x t)] x [w- (2 x t)], and the internal volume by Vint = 12' x [d - (2 x t)] x [w - (2 x t)].

Here, Vint = 12' x [36"-2 x 2"] x [12"- 2 x 2"]/(144 in2/ft2) = 12' x 1.778 ft2 = 21.333 ft3.

The internal volumes will be re-examined later as a possible space to place the thermite.

The website also mentions that the largest box columns used at the core bases had the dimensions of 16" wide x 36" deep x 4" thick. It is not known where exactly the molten steel, that puddled in the WTC basement, originated in the towers. The melt could have occurred some what higher in the columns (where "average" box columns would have been), or at the base where the "largest" box columns were. Molten material would flow down the various WTC shafts to the lowest point possible, 6 stories (some 72') below ground level. Applying the same formulae as above, we have for these "largest" columns, A= [36" x 4" + (16" - 2 x 4") x 4"] x 2 = 352 in2 = 2.444 ft2. Note that this happens to be twice the area as for the "average" box column assumed above. Again, for a 12' column, V = 12' x 2.444 ft2 = 29.328 ft3. Also, here, the internal volume is Vint = 12' x [36' - 2 x 4"] x [16' -2 x 4"]/144" = 18.667 ft3.

In summary, we have for a 12 ft. high core box-column, for a

12" wide x 36"deep x 2" wall thickness (hereafter referred to as an "average" box column), that it has 14.67 ft3 = 0.415 m3 volume of steel, and 21.33 ft3 = 0.604 m3 of internal volume; and
16" wide x 36" deep x 4" wall thickness (hereafter referred to as a "largest" box column), that it has 29.328 ft3 = 0.832 m3 of steel and 18.667 ft3 = 0.529 m3 of internal volume.

Sensible and Latent Heat Energies Needed for Melting a Core Column Section
Knowing the volume of steel involved, we next turn our attention to calculating the energy needed to melt a core column section. We decided to use values for the element iron rather than steel for the following pragmatic reasons:

steel is mostly iron (Fe);
whatever steel is chosen, may be the wrong kind and would be contested: Fe is a given and known quantity, whereas there are many steels;
Fe values found were readily available and reasonably self-consistent;
except for stainless steels, the thermal properties of steel are relatively close to Fe, although the mechanical properties may certainly differ more.
For Fe we will use the following values:

Density = 7874 kg/m3
Melting point = 1811 K = 1538 C
Specific heat = 25.1J/mol K = 449 J/kg K = 0.449 kJ/kg K
Latent heart of fusion = 13,800 J/mol = 2.47 x 10+5 J/kg
Latent heat of evaporation = 347,000 J/mol = 6.21 x 10+3 kJ/kg
mol = gm mole equivalent = 0.0558 kg for Fe

For a 12 ft high core Fe column, we have

for the "average" box column, 0.415 m3 x 7874 kg/m3 = 3267.71 kg Fe; and
for the "largest" box column, 0.832 m3 x 7874 kg/m3 = 6551.17 kg Fe.
Taking 300 K as "ambient" temperature on 9-11, then the temperature difference up to the melting point of Fe is given by

1811 K - 300 K = 1511 K (give or take a few degrees K).

Hence, the energy needed to raise a 12 ft high Fe column to its melting point temperature is given by

for an "average" column, 3267.71 kg x 1511 K x 0.449 kJ/kg K = 2.22 x 10+6 kJ; and
for a "largest" column, 6551.17 kg x 1511 K x 0.449 kJ/kg K = 4.44 x 10+6 kJ.
To actually melt the Fe at 1511 K, we need to provide the latent heat of fusion:

for "average" column, 3267.71 kg x 2.47 x 10+2 kJ/kg = 8.07 x 10+5 kJ; and
for "largest" column, 6551.17 kg x 2.47 x 10+2 kJ/kg = 1.62 x 10+6 kJ.
Thus we see that the sensible heat energies involved are almost a factor of 3 times larger than the latent heats.

Hence, for the total amount of energy needed to melt a 12 ft high Fe column, we need:

for "average" box column, (2.22 + 0.81) x 10+6 kJ = 3.03 x 10+6 kJ; and
for "largest" box column, (4.44 + 1.62) x 10+6 kJ = 6.06 x 10+6kJ
Energies of the Thermite Reaction
An iron oxide/aluminum "thermite" mixture consists of 23.7% Al, 74.7% Fe2O3 by weight, in the reaction

Fe2O3 + 2 Al => Al2O3 + 2 Fe + 849 kJ/mol.

Thus, 849 kJ of energy are released for every g-mole-equivalent (mol) of Fe2O3 that reacts with 2 mol of Al.

For Al, with a density of 2.699 g/cm3, there are 26.98 g/mol.

For Fe2O3, with a density of 5.24 g/cm3, there are 159.70 g/mol.

So then, 159.70 g of Fe2O3 + 53.96 g of Al (213.66 g total) produces 849 kJ of energy, or 3.974 kJ/g = 3.974 x 10+3 kJ/kg (Note that this gives the proper % component mixtures by weight).

For an infinitesimally compacted powder mixture, this would occupy a volume of 159.70g x (cm3/5.24 g) + 53.96 g x (cm3/2.699 g) = (30.48 + 20.0) cm3 = 50.48 cm3.

A separate analysis of a CuO/Al thermite mixture (used to weld copper parts) indicates a powder packing fraction of 0.82 (82%) can be achieved. Let's assume a powder packing fraction of 0.82. Hence, our Fe2O3/Al thermite mixture would occupy not 50.48 cm3, but 61.5 cm3.

Thus the physical density of our densely-packed Fe2O3/Al thermite mixture is

213.66 g/61.5 cm3 = 3.474 g/cm3 = 3.474 x 10+6 g/m3 = 3.474 x 10+3 kg/m3,

and our energy density (per volume) is given by

849 kJ/61.5 cm3 = 13.805 kJ/cm3 = 1.3805 x 10+7 kJ/m3.

Thus to melt a 12 ft high Fe column, we need

for an "average" column, (3.03 x 10+6 kJ)/(3.974 x 10+3 kJ/kg) = 0.7625 x 10+3 kg = 762.5 kg of thermite. This would occupy a volume of 762.5 kg/(3.474 x 10+3 kg/m3) = 0.219 m3. Note that this volume of thermite is less than the internal volume Vint calculated earlier, 0.604 m3. Actually, the internal volume of the "average" box column could be filled with 0.604 m3/0.219 m3 = 2.76 times more than needed to do the job. Alternatively, the column does not require as high a packing density ( i.e. <0.82) and yet be able to load a sufficient charge of thermite mixture to cause melting
for a "largest" column, (6.06 x10+6 kJ)/(3.974 x 10+3 kJ/kg) = 1524.9 kg thermite. This would occupy a volume of 1524.9 kg/(3.974 x 10+3 kg/m3) = 0.439 m3. Note that this volume of thermFite also is less than the earlier calculated Vint = 0.529, but would require a moderately high packing density, approximately > 0.82 x 0.439/0.529 = 0.68.
Other Locations Where Thermite Could Be Placed to Cause Core Box Column Melting
In the preceding section, the amount of thermite needed to cause melting was calculated, and compared to the internal volume available. Just as insulation in building walls is introduced by means of relatively small holes drilled through walls, so could thermite have been placed into the interiors of the core box columns. For the "average" columns this would certainly work, since there is ample volume to overcharge with a low packing density (>0.5). The "largest" columns could be filled in the same way, although some way to "settle" the compound powders might be necessary to achieve a packing density from a pour to be > 0.68.

Rather than fill the interior of a column with chemical compound, what if the thermite compound was applied to the outside of the column, under a layer of "fire-proofing" protective cladding/thermal insulation? How thick would an exterior layer need to be applied?

(a) For an "average" box column, if T is the thickness of the applied outside layer of thermite compound, it would have a X-sectional area given by

Acoat = [T x (d + 2 x T) + T x w] x 2, where d = 36" and w = 12" as before.

This can be rewritten as Acoat = 2 x [2 x Texp2 + T x (d + w)]

For a 12 ft = 3.658 m column, the volume of the coating of thickness T is given by

Vcoat = 2 x 3.658 x [2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T] = 0.219 m3, or

2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T = 0.219 m3/ (2 x 3.658 m) = 0.0299 m2, or

2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T -0.0299 m2 = 0. This is in the form of a quadratic equation, where the solution is given by

T (in meters)= {-b + SQRT(bexp2 - 4 x a x c)}/2 x a, where here

a = 2, b = (d + w) = 12" + 36" = 48" = 1.219 m, and c = -0.0299 m2. Substituting,

T = {-1.219 + SQRT[(1.219)exp2 - 4 x 2 x (-0.0299)]}/(2 x 2). Simplifying,

T = {-1.219 + SQRT[1.486 + 0.2395]}/4 = {-1.219 + SQRT[1.725]}/4 =

= {-1.219 + 1.313}/4, or

T = 0.0236 m = 0.93", which is less than 1" of coating for the "average" column.

(This solution can be verified by substitution in the original equation for Vcoat).

(b) For a "largest" box column, here Vcoat = 0.439 m3 and (d + w) = 16"+36" = 1.321m.

So, 2 x Texp2 + 1.321 x T = 0.439m3/(2 x 3.658 m) = 0.0600, or

2 x Texp2 + 1.321 x T - 0.0600 = 0. So, using the quadratic solution again,

T = {-1.321 + SQRT[(1.321)exp2 - 4 x 2 x (-0.600)]}/(2 x 2). Simplifying,

T = {-1.321 + SQRT[1.745 + 0.48]}/4 = {-1.321 + SQRT[2.225]}/4 = {-1.321 + 1.492}/4, or

T = 0.04275 m = 1.683", which is less than 1-3/4" of coating for the largest column.

In short, if a coating slightly less than 2" thick of a thermite coating were applied to the outer surface of any box column, that is sufficient chemical compound to melt that column section. A protective, insulating and cosmetic/disguising layer (e.g. fiberglass/foam) 1" or less would also be helpful.

Conclusions
In this paper we have attempted to establish the amount of thermite that would be necessary to melt a box column at or near the base of the WTC towers' cores, to see if the amount necessary was physically feasible, or would require an unrealistic amount sure to attract detection before its use. We have used thermal parameters for iron, and assumed thermite as the chemical compound. The analysis is thus imperfect, since the structural steel used may have slightly different properties, requiring more (or less) of the chemical compound. A different, more sophisticated compound may have required even less volume than has been calculated here.

Still the implications are clear: such a melting of a section of all the inner core box pillars is possible, using relatively simple technology. Such compounds could have been applied to the interior or the exterior of even the largest of these columns in a surreptitious manner, to accomplish the task of melting and collapse. The amount necessary for complete melting of a segment of even the largest box column was calculated, and found possible. Of course complete melting was not necessary to cause total failure: a lesser amount of a thermite-like compound could have been used to raise the temperature of the steel to a point where the columns would fail before melting, although some melting must have occurred to account for the steel pools.

It is pure speculation if, how, and when this was done. The columns would have been most easily filled during the initial construction phase, but this requires belief in a foresight and 30-40 year "master plan" that may be difficult for many to think possible. (Many buildings are constructed with ultimate demolition in the design, to make way for future construction in urban areas. Usually, the building design includes cavities for controlled demolition explosive placement. The non-availability of WTC tower blueprints makes it difficult to access this possibility).

However, there have been undoubtedly a number of opportunities under the guise of maintenance: many stories exist about problems with the "insulation" adhering to the steel support structures of the WTC towers. Also, the first attack on the WTC towers in 1993, in the basement of the complex, offered an opportunity for access and "repair" to demolition experts and construction personnel. Thermite is a relatively safe compound, requiring high temperature to initiate reaction - a magnesium fuse is commonly used. We will probably never know exactly what sequence of events unfolded to culminate in the WTC collapses of 11 September 2001.

Acknowledgments
The author wishes to acknowledge discussions with A.K. Dewdney, J. King, J. Longspaugh, B. Mayeux, J. Russell, R. Stanley, S. Walker and other friends and associates of SPINE. Of course, the author takes full responsibility for the content of this work; any errors are his alone.

Appendix A: WTC Seismic Energy Correlation Calculations
F. Moscatelli of Swarthmore College has provided figures on the energy releases involved in the WTC tower collapses in an article by the BBC [Ref (11)]. The article reports the gravitational energy for both towers plus sundry other collapses as 6.8 x 10+11 J, +-25%. Hence, for one WTC tower, the gravitational energy involved can be approximated by ˝ x 6.8 x 10+11 J = 3.4 x 10+11 J = 94,400 kWh +- 25%. (Here, using an energy unit conversion site is handy [Ref. (12)]). This figure for single tower collapse seems about right, and agrees with the figure of 100,000 kWh used at various other sites; an estimate of 160,000 tons of steel, concrete, etc., per tower yields a value of 85,000 kWh (J. Russell, personal communication); FEMA's Building Performance Assessment Report indicates about 111,000 kWh per tower (see J. Hoffman's dust cloud analysis at Ref.(13)); see also various websites listed in the Introduction). Hence, a first order calculation suggests that the amount of gravitational energy involved in the collapse of a WTC tower is on the order of 94,400+-23,600 kWh.

This is also the amount of energy that can be roughly back-calculated from a Palisades observatory WTC collapse seismic event of 2.2 (average) magnitude, and compared to a Palisades recorded quarry explosion seismic event "calibration" of 1.5 (average) magnitude. The quarry explosions were caused by the detonation of 80,000 lbs = 40 tons of ammonium nitrate/fuel oil (ANFO), equivalent to approximately 0.30 x 40 = 12 tons of TNT = 13,946 kWh, where 1 ton ANFO = 30% of 1 ton of TNT energy equivalent, and 1 ton TNT = 4.186 x 10+9 J = 1,163 kWh. If we take the ratio of the magnitudes of the seismic energies for the WTC collapse and for a quarry explosion, we have the ratio of (10+2.2)/(10+1.5) = 158.5/31.6 = 5.02. Hence, the seismic energy of the WTC event compared to a quarry explosion can be given roughly by 5.02 x 13,946 kWh = 70,009 kWh. This is just at the lower limit of the calculated gravitational collapse energy calculated above, 70,800 kWh. Also, consider that some portion of the towers' concrete mass that was pulverized into suspended fine dust would not appear in a seismic spike signal. Some estimated 90,000 tons of the estimated 160,000 tons of material per tower was concrete (i.e. 56% of tower mass was concrete, while 44% was steel, etc.). Assume, for discussion's sake, that half the concrete per tower was converted into fine dust that did not contribute to the immediate seismic signal (i.e. 28% of tower mass). Subtracting this 28% of tower mass would decrease the "average" figure of 100,000 kWh of total gravitational energy per tower to 68,000 kWh. Again this is close to the crudely calibrated value of 70,009 kWh. Although these calculations involve arguable assumptions, the author only wishes to demonstrate that claims the observed seismic spike indicated a massive pre-collapse explosion are not supported by the mathematical analysis. The conclusion the author arrived at is that the seismic spikes observed were certainly of the same magnitude as, and not separate from, the WTC towers' gravitational energies.

It has been the main thrust of this paper that explosions leaving a seismic spike would not have been necessary to bring down a structure like a WTC tower. A slower reaction would still cause core failure. Whether a chemical reaction takes place over a period of say, 1 second, or 1 millisecond, the energy released is the same. Since power = energy/unit-time, then a reaction taking 1 millsecond would have 1000 times the power as a reaction taking 1 second, but still release the same amount of energy. This is the difference between a blast and a melt. The melt would not (necessarily) leave a seismic signature.


Appendix B: Calculation of the Amount of Thermite-Equivalent Needed to Provide the Energy Source for the Energy Sinks Calculated by J. Hoffman in His Analysis of the WTC North Tower Pyroclastic Cloud
As an exercise, calculations are presented here of the amount of thermite needed to fill the energy sinks calculated by J. Hoffman in his analysis of the WTC north tower pyroclastic cloud [Ref.(13)]. It should be stated at the outset that thermite is not definitely proposed as the mechanism for this cloud expansion. Just as for the collapse of the inner core, the calculations are done to see if it is possible to contain enough thermite-equivalent within the WTC tower structures to create the effect of the pyroclastic cloud.

Ignoring water vaporization, Hoffman calculates a total energy sink to be filled by a source of 11,724,000 kWh; see his Summary table at Ref (13). This allows for thermodynamic gas expansion only (no water vapor expansion). For water vapor expansion only (no water supply limit for vaporization), the energy source required is 2,706,000 kWh. This is regarded by Hoffman as a lower-limit range for the sink, 2,706,000 to 11,724,000 kWh.

In this present paper, we calculated that the energy density per volume for densely packed thermite is given by 1.3805 x 10+7 kJ/m3. Since, 1 kWh = 3600 kJ, then the thermite energy density is given by 3,835 kWh/m3. Hence, to reach the lower limit of Hoffman's range, a volume of 705.6 m3 of densely-packed thermite would be needed, and to reach the upper limit of the range, 3057.1 m3 would be required.

Let us do a rough estimate of the volume inside of the core columns of a WTC tower, as a first place chosen to put the above calculated m3 of thermite. Let us assume the following for a WTC tower: the 6 floors of the basement and the first 6 floors above ground are "largest" box columns; the remaining 79 floors from the 7th to the 85th are "average" box columns; above the 85th floor the supports are I-beam , not box columns, without internal volume. Let us further assume 47 core columns per floor. (These assumptions, while reasonable, are somewhat arbitrary, in this "boundary-value" calculation).

Earlier we calculated for a "largest" box columns, 0.529 m3 of internal volume, while for an "average" column we arrived at 0.604 m3 of internal volume. Hence, per floor of "largest" core columns we have an internal core volume of 47 x 0.529 m3 = 24.86 m3; and per floor of "average" columns, an internal core volume of 47 x 0.604 m3 = 28.39 m3. Twelve floors of "largest" core columns provides 12 x 24.86 m3 = 298.3 m3 of volume, while 79 floors of "average" columns provides 79 x 28.39 m3 = 2242.8 m3 of volume. Thus we have a grand total of 2541.1 m3 of core column inner volume available for controlled demolition charges. Note that this available volume of 2541.1 m3 is within the range of volumes needed above for densely-packed thermite, 705.6 m3 to 3057.1 m3.

It is not likely that all the core volumes could be filled in this way with high-density thermite. Recall that a less-than 2" thick thermite coating applied to a column exterior as "insulation" was sufficient to melt it. The surfaces of columns and floors are more likely places to apply chemical compounds disguised as "insulation" (Recall reports about the WTC's "shoddy" construction, rumored influenced by organized crime; recall also reports about problems getting the "insulation" to adhere).

Let us do one more calculation for illustration. For simplicity, this time consider the case of a WTC tower with 91 floors of all "average" box columns, including the basement and first 6 floors above ground. Let each floor have 47 such columns, for 47 x 91 = 4277 columns total. These 12' tall column surfaces are to be coated with 3057.1 m3 of a thermite like compound. This works out to 0.71 m3 per column. How thick would this coating need to be? As before when we considered a core column's surface coating for an "average" column, let the volume of the coating be Vcoat ( = 0.71 m3, instead of 0.219 m3 as before). Then,

Vcoat = 2 x 3.658 x [2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T] = 0.71 m3 , or

2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T = 0.71 m3/(2 x 3.658 m) = 0.097 m2. Simplifying,

2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T - 0.097 = 0.

This is again in the form of a quadratic equation, where a =2; b = (d + w) = 12" + 36" = 48" = 1.219 m; and c = -0.097 m2. Then, as before,

T = {-1.219 + SQRT[(1.219)exp2 - 4 x 2 x (-0.097)]}/(2 x 2), or

T = {-1.219 + SQRT[1.486 + 0.776]}/4 = {-1.219 + SQRT[2.262]}/4 or

T = {-1.219 + 1.504}/4 = 0.071 m = 2.81".

In short, if a coating slightly less than 3" thick of a thermite like coating were applied to the outer surfaces of the box columns, that volume would contain sufficient energy to account for the pyroclastic cloud, under the conditions of the largest energy sink calculated by Hoffman.

This paper will not consider the much greater surface areas and coating volumes provided (and thinner coatings allowed) by the WTC floors themselves -- what better places to heat and pulverize concrete? That is left for the reader to ponder.


References

(1) http://www.maebrussell.com/Articles%20and%20Notes/WTC%20Explosives.html and http://emperors-clothes.com/news/albu.htm

(2) http://emperors-clothes.com/news/albu.htm

(3) http://www.geocities.com/streakingobject/07NYTimes7WTCwhy.html

(4) http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_WTC/WTC_LDEO_KIM.pdf and http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/13974.php

(5) See for example http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/shake2.html as one site of the video clip.

(6) http://members.fortunecity.com/911/wtc/proof.htm

(7) http://members.fortunecity.com/911/wtc/nova.htm

(8) http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12

(9) http://www.americanfreepress.net/09_03_02/NEW_SEISMIC_/new_seismic_.html

(10) http://www.misternet.org/nerdcities/WTC/wtc-demolition.htm

(11) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1550326.stm

(12) http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/energy/

(13) http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12

© Derrick P. Grimmer, Ph.D., 16th November 2003


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posted 02-03-2004 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wolf_Larson   Visit Wolf_Larson's Homepage!   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Boomer Chick:

Calculations on the Possible Use of Thermite
to Melt Sections of the WTC Core Columns
by D. P. Grimmer
Version 1.0, November 23rd 2003
Abstract . .

Blah, blah blah . . .

What immediately struck some observers, this author included, is how much these collapses resembled a controlled demolition.


Just because it resembled a “controlled” demolition doesn’t mean that explosives were used. Very few explosives are actually used in most “controlled” demolitions. The purpose of the explosives in a “controlled” demolition is to start the process by which gravity is used to bring the buildings down. In the case of WTC, the airplane impacts and the jet fuel fires did this.

quote:

Blah, blah blah . . .


Consider the following: if the pancaking effect caused the total building failure, why is it that no video of either of the WTC collapses shows any sign of stutter between floor collapses, which should have been very apparent especially in the first few floors of collapse when the speed of gravitational collapse was small?



The author claims that we “should” have seen some sort of “stutter” as the collapse started. I ask Why? Can he provide any data or engineering calculations to support this claim? All he has to do is to calculate the kinetic energy of the upper part of the falling tower at the point of impact with the floor as the first floor collapsed. Then he can calculate the “live” load limits for that floor and come up with a difference that we can look at. Of course this is totally ignoring the fact that as the upper part of the tower started down, the columns and beams on the collapsing floor were tied into the columns and beams of the floor below. As the columns and beams on the collapsing floor twisted, bent and distorted in the collapse, what effect would that have had on the beams and columns on the floor directly below? Is it reasonable to expect that at the point when the upper part of the tower impacted the lower part of the tower, that the structural integrity of this floor was at 100%?

quote:

Blah, blah blah . . .

The free-fall times and pools of molten steel are entirely different matters. They are a matter of public record, observed by many individuals. So we have evidence of molten steel in the basement;


Really? So far I have only seen hearsay evidence of molten steel. Is ther any physical evidence that it was in fact molten steel, and not some other material?

quote:

Blah, blah blah . . .

(although numerous claims of sounds of smaller explosions and observations of demolition squibs).


Demolitions squibs? That is a new one. Again, do we have any physical evidence? Has someone found and kept one of these squibs?

quote:

Blah, blah blah . . .


Until simple chemical reactants like thermite can be discarded there is really no need to invoke the use of highly speculative and sophisticated devices like thermobaric bombs and scalar EM weapons.


Well, I am glad that he is discounting the possibility of scalar weapons {snigger}. Especially since they don’t exist and never will.

quote:

Blah, blah blah . . .

Melting of WTC Inner Core Columns
Evidence of molten steel was found at the very base of the WTC towers, and is a matter of public record.


Again, this is not definitive.

quote:

Blah, blah blah . . .


In short, if a coating slightly less than 2" thick of a thermite coating were applied to the outer surface of any box column, that is sufficient chemical compound to melt that column section. A protective, insulating and cosmetic/disguising layer (e.g. fiberglass/foam) 1" or less would also be helpful.



Well this person has obviously never been inside a building during or after construction when the outer envelope is in place, but the internal buildout has not been completed. Nor does he understand how the WTC towers were constructed. Look at a picture of the WTC. Three sides of the perimeter columns are covered with the exterior stone cladding. Only one side, the interior face of the columns would have been accesable once the cladding was put on.

quote:

Blah, blah blah . . .


© Derrick P. Grimmer, Ph.D., 16th November 2003


A PhD? Huh? I’d like to see his C.V.