posted 05-22-2004 10:45 AM            

There are two sayings:

quote:

---

You can judge a culture on how it treats it's prisinors

---

quote:

---

You can judge a society on how it treats animals

---

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523723

Tension rises as bulldozers tear down zoo in Rafah

By Donald Macintyre in Rafah

22 May 2004

With a parrot that had escaped the Israelis perched on his shoulder, and a kangaroo crouching in the corner of the room, Mohammed Juma contemplated the little that was left of the zoo he had spent five years creating. "This was my life," he declared. "I watched my dream being destroyed."

The first bulldozer, he said, had come, escorted by a tank, at 2am on Thursday morning. Between then and when Israeli soldiers left the zoo at dawn yesterday, he had watched as the army killed birds and animals, uprooted shrubs, trees and grass, destroyed pens and cages, and then dumped much of the debris and wreckage into the zoo's swimming pool.

The despoliation of the zoo at the Brazil refugee camp may seem insignificant after 41 Palestinian deaths in Rafah this week and the trail of destruction left by the Israelis elsewhere in the Al Salaam and Brazil camps - the Israelis demolished an estimated 43 homes in Brazil, reducing them to rubble still awaiting clearance yesterday - but it is a potent symbol of the much wider havoc wrought in the two camps and a third, Tel Sultan, since the Rafah incursion began on Monday.

The zoo, the only one in the Gaza Strip, was perhaps the only attraction for children in a town almost entirely without public amenities. Admission cost just one shekel - about 12p. The destruction betrayed a wantonness that went beyond anything that could be deemed militarily necessary to hunt down militants or find tunnels used to smuggle explosives. Although soldiers commandeered the top floor of one of the three buildings for sniper positions, it was much more difficult to explain the damage to the harmless recreation space below their vantage point.

Mr Juma insisted that he had watched with his own eyes as the Israeli bulldozer drivers broke into a cage containing 40-45 Macaw parrots and put them into the cabin of one of the bulldozers before taking them away. "It looked as though the drivers knew about animals," he said.

According to Mr Juma, 40, the Army also released some 80 animals, including monkeys, a fox, a non-poisonous snake and - adding yet another danger to those already faced by the residents of the Brazil camp - seven jaguars. Mr Juma held a sickly looking raccoon in his arms, betraying a deep gash under its hind legs, and pointed to a long row of feathers on the ground indicating a dead ostrich buried beneath the debris.

The Israeli Army claimed last night that it had been forced to pass through the zoo because explosive devices had been planted in the roads and that it had made "every effort not to harm any of the animals". But Mr Juma said: "I believe they planned to do this. I can't call the Israelis animals because animals are beautiful."

Despite the partial withdrawal from the Brazil camp yesterday, the Israelis made it clear that the operation would continue. Some tanks remained in the camp as a funeral procession followed the bodies of four militants killed by Israeli forces in the past 24 hours, including Khaled Abu Maza, head of Hamas's military wing in Rafah. Abu Maza was killed by a missile targeted at him while he was in the Al Salaam camp.

But in the absence of any new finds of tunnelling, Gideon Ezra, a Likud government minister, said that the operation would rely increasingly on intelligence, while a senior Army officer was quoted by Israeli media as saying that Palestinians in Rafah would not yet be able to "rest easy".

Residents in the Brazil camp talked angrily of homes destroyed by bulldozers, despite earlier denials by the army that this was happening.

The army destroyed a one-and-a-half acre olive grove in the centre of the camp, uprooting its 300 trees and the home of the owner's father, Suleman Qishta, 95. The owner, Mehidan Qishta, said that a bulldozer had pushed through the wall as his father lay on his bed. Debris which had crashed down on the bed was still visible yesterday, as were cuts and bruises on the old man's arms and legs. "I heard my father screaming after the bulldozer came," said Mr Qishta. "I thought he was dying."

Shakria Khamis, 60, tried to stay in her house even after a bulldozer pushed through a wall. Her daughter, Iktimal Awad, 35, said: "My mother was shouting, 'I don't want to leave'." She was forced to flee as masonry continued to fall.

posted 05-22-2004 07:49 PM            

Arg. I'm sooo sick of this crap.

We need to take back our country.

posted 05-22-2004 08:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swedishoo:
We need to take back our country.

---

You got that right! NOW...NOT LATER!

But, you can't critisize Israel's policies, lest you be a called an anti-Semite.

I guess Jews who detest Sharon and his policies are anti-Semites then.

Just like us Americans who critisize Bush "Terists" or "Un-Murkin".

The Axis of Evil is Sharon, Blair, and Bush, and with "Shemp" John Howard of Australia.

Blair is Toast. Bush has to stage an attack or a Diebold-coup, Sharon is up to his fat ass in scandels, and Howard sounds like he is finished.

posted 05-22-2004 08:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swedishoo:
Hmm, maybe there's a change of "order" going on?

---

Or in those people's case, "A change of Odor"

posted 05-22-2004 09:22 PM            

quote:

---

But, you can't critisize Israel's policies, lest you be a called an anti-Semite

---

I'm of the Christian faith and this is what makes me angry: We have been brainwashed through the church to believe that blessed is who loves the Jew...the Jew, our brothers... anti-semitism is a no no...etc etc. BUT, Islam is semtic too!! So, what's the deal here?

posted 05-22-2004 10:01 PM            

I believe Jesus would want all of us to realize our own heart-felt potential as unique individuals.

posted 05-22-2004 11:53 PM            

Our society in America is turning into a combination of Fascism and Communism, not a Democratic Socialist Republic, the latter of which in my opinion, is ideal. In Comminism, the state is all. You have not as much incividuality. Facism always starts out as capitalism, and devolves into a polar oppsosite of communism, when in essence, they are the same.

Also the polarity of Perversion and Prudity are pulling the country apart, which manifests in the Liberal vs Conservative dichotomy. Perople take sides. One will say everything goes with no bars..Anarchy...and the other wants restraints on everything.. Fascism.

When the Church takes politcial sides, as in the case of your Pastor not wanting to pray for Iraqis, you are witnessing the further dissolving of church through dogma.

posted 05-22-2004 11:58 PM            

Our society in America is turning into a combination of Fascism and Communism, not a Democratic Socialist Republic, the latter of which in my opinion, is ideal. In Comminism, the state is all. You have not as much incividuality. Facism always starts out as capitalism, and devolves into a polar oppsosite of communism, when in essence, they are the same.

Also the polarity of Perversion and Prudity are pulling the country apart, which manifests in the Liberal vs Conservative dichotomy. Perople take sides. One will say everything goes with no bars..Anarchy...and the other wants restraints on everything.. Fascism.

When the Church takes politcial sides, as in the case of your Pastor not wanting to pray for Iraqis, you are witnessing the further dissolving of church dogma.

posted 05-23-2004 12:01 PM            

quote:

---

Jefferson had the insight to see that Church and State should be separated. Now we have governments using religion and religions taking partisan sides.

---

Even though "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" as written in our First Amendment, they have manipulated and discovered other ways to enforce state constraints with the use of fear, tax incentves, and twisting Jefferson's words.

It drives me crazy when I hear people quote Jefferson's "seperation of church and state" statement. This is one of the phrases that have perverted our viewpoints of freedom of religion. Over the past couple of decades we've been duped into believing that this play-on-words, creating an entirely different meaning today, is part of the Consitution, when actually is it not, however it is the basis of the First Amendment. The First Amendment is clearly defined into law. Seperation of Church and State does not mean keep the Church and the State seperate, it means that Congress cannot intervene or control the church or tell the people how to believe.

The state controlling our public schools under the "seperation of church and state" mind-set is ingenious. Should teachers teach children their religion in the classroom, no. Should children be allowed to say the morning pledge with One Nation Under God, or have religious themes at Christmas, absolutley. Why? Because the state cannot tell anyone, anywhere, under any roof, even if "funded" by the government, how to conduct a religious based situation. Period.

It's scary to think that almost 3/4 of this nation has no clue what their Constitutional Rights are, or what they mean. And we wonder why the government can do whatever they damn well please and get away with it.

Christy

posted 05-23-2004 12:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swedishoo:
[B] Even though [b]The state controlling our public schools under the "seperation of church and state" mind-set is ingenious. Should teachers teach children their religion in the classroom, no. Should children be allowed to say the morning pledge with One Nation Under God, or have religious themes at Christmas, absolutley. Why? Because the state cannot tell anyone, anywhere, under any roof, even if "funded" by the government, how to conduct a religious based situation. Period.

---

Atheists, Agnostics, Hindus, and Pagans shouldn't have to pay taxes for Public Schools using the word "God", and having Christian prayers. This is the reason behind separation of Church and State. To prevent a King George situation where religion is dictated to people that have no desire to be told what is the correct diety to believe in. Religion is too easy to control is another reason. We must remember, it is not what one believes is important, it is the beliefs put into action that counts, be it Pagan or Christian, destructive or constructive, logical or irrational, compassionate or sadistic.

posted 05-23-2004 01:25 PM            

"Atheists, Agnostics, Hindus, and Pagans shouldn't have to pay taxes for Public Schools using the word "God", and having Christian prayers"

This is a rediculous comment because they pay taxes for their education and has nothing to do with someone saying a prayer at graduation or an assembly once or twice a year. It's not about taking away, it's about adding to. Our Constitution ensures our religious expression, which includes Atheists, Agnostics, Hindus, and Pagans. If someone of these faiths want to add their comments, then they have every right to do so. The point is, the government can't tell them that they can't.

posted 05-23-2004 02:24 PM            

But what protects Pagans and atheists from over-zealous education systems that believe their belief system is only one way to see the universe.

For instance, I'm hearing principle's in schools warning and in some cases, suspending students who draw anti-Bush artwork, or write anti-war poetry. Who should come into defend such people, the ACLU, or should laws be intact to protect those that do not wish to belief in a sky god or The Bible or War?

And what about Satanists? Should they be allowed to sacrifice animals after class? Religion belongs in your own mind and in places where you choose with people that believe the same. It does not belong in public funded areas, such as schools and municiple buildings.

If one wants to have an after class Prayer Class or Pagan Flute Playing class, I have no problem. As long as you pay for it yourself, and I don't pay for any of it. This is my Libertarian Side. You want something, you pay for it, be it war, Prayers, public transportation, solar power, and fixing roads. You have children that you want to be Christians or Pagans, you teach them yourself, or choose a church, synagogue, or temple of your choice.

It is strange, Conservative Christians do not want to pay for the National Endowmnet for the Arts, yet want everyone to pay for prayer in schools, which comes down to time = money.

AS witnessed by MAd Muslims and Crazker Fundamentalis Christians, religion and politics DO NOT mix.

posted 05-23-2004 02:39 PM            

But what protects Pagans and atheists from over-zealous education systems that believe their belief system is only one way to see the universe.

For instance, I'm hearing principle's in schools warning and in some cases, suspending students who draw anti-Bush artwork, or write anti-war poetry. Who should come into defend such people, the ACLU, or should laws be intact to protect those that do not wish to belief in a sky god or The Bible?

And what about Satanists? Should they be allowed to sacrifice animals after class? Religion belongs in your own mind and in places where you choose with people that believe the same. It does not belong in public funded areas, such as schools and municiple buildings.

If one wants to have an after class Prayer Class or Pagan Flute Playing class, I have no problem. As long as you pay for it yourself, and I don't pay for any of it. This is my Libertarian Side. You want something, you pay for it, be it war, Prayers, public transportation, solar power, and fixing roads. You have children that you want to be Christians or Pagans, you teach them yourself, or choose a church, synagogue, or temple of your choice.

It is strange, Conservative Christians do not want to pay for the National Endowmnet for the Arts, yet want everyone to pay for prayer in schools, which comes down to time = money.

AS witnessed by MAd Muslims and Crazker Fundamentalis Christians, religion and politics DO NOT mix.

posted 05-23-2004 03:54 PM            

quote:

---

Religion does not belong...in public funded areas, such as schools and municiple buildings.

---

This is my point...We the people, not the government officals, determine where religious-theme material can go or not go. We have the Right, and will continue to have the Right until the day the Constitution goes up in flames. I don't know what religion you are Swamp, nor does it matter, but I will fight to have mine as well as yours, be free.

posted 05-23-2004 05:35 PM            

When you start shoving any belief system down people's throats, some people are coming up at the short end, espcecially Muslims.

Again, you have missed the point. Jefferson and the Founders had the insight to know why people left England in the first place, to believe the way they wanted too.

you didn't answer any of my questions BTW.

Would you then stop any of the following belief systems in a public school

1) Nudists
2) Rastafarians
3) Buddhists
4) Hindus
5) Pagans
6) Atheists
7) Agnostics
8) Satanists
9) Zorastrians
10) Muslims

Should each religion or belief be forced to listen to the other?

How do plan on implementing non-secular anarchy, which is what you are proposing?

Let me be frank...Mullahs of every belief (yes Pagans too..Listen to what some Pagan women think of men), think their Operating System is the correct one. Separation of Church and State is a VERY good idea. Then crazed politicians and people in power can't use their position to force their belief system on the rest of us.

I'll repeat again, religion belongs inside of you, and nowhere else, except where people gather with similar beliefs.

The issue with Christian Faith is yours, not my issue. Jesus was a Pagan, an Essene, and The Bible was a politically expedient book written by many people with differing views, some completely fanatical and sadistic, some very kind. I have no problem per say with Christians, but do not think for one minute some people will let Fundamentaists get away with anything.

posted 05-23-2004 05:44 PM            

http://www.powerskeptic.net/freedom.htm

Freedom, God, and George W. Bush

Analysis of the non-Biblical Bush thesis that freedom is from God.

by Frank Wallis

I keep hearing a familiar refrain from George W. Bush: freedom is from God, not from man.

"Liberty is both the plan of Heaven for humanity, and the best hope for progress here on Earth. The progress of liberty is a powerful trend. Yet, we also know that liberty, if not defended, can be lost. The success of freedom is not determined by some dialectic of history. By definition, the success of freedom rests upon the choices and the courage of free peoples, and upon their willingness to sacrifice. In the trenches of World War I, through a two-front war in the 1940s, the difficult battles of Korea and Vietnam, and in missions of rescue and liberation on nearly every continent, Americans have amply displayed our willingness to sacrifice for liberty." (Speech at the 20th Anniversary of the National Endowment for Democracy, 6 Nov. 2003)

One can only witness in wonderment what Bush means by "our willingness to sacrifice for liberty". GIs were sacrificed, but who made the decision to send them to war? Rich people who partied at night while poor men were being blown to bits on the battlefield.

It is to be seriously doubted that soldiers fight for freedom. They fight to stay alive and avoid letting their fellows down. Later, the pols tell them they fought well for King and Country, for the Führer, for Allah, or for Freedom. They shed a tear for the fallen, and then go home to party. Meanwhile, the survivors are left to wonder for the rest of their lives what it was all about.

As a true conservative, Bush must include Vietnam as an example of Americans dying for freedom. But this is revolting. The Vietnam adventure was pure filth, based on a lie (the bogus Gulf of Tonkin Resolution). It is hard for cons and veterans to admit that GIs were killed for nothing.

Said Bush in 2003, "More than half of all the Muslims in the world live in freedom under democratically constituted governments." (ibid.) I guess he includes 200 million strong Indonesia which allows Muslim pogroms against Christians. Note the wiggle wording: "democratically constituted", which means there is a fig leaf of technical merit, but as in communist China the meaning of democracy is a tricky thing.

"We know that freedom is the gift of God to all mankind, and we rejoice when others can share it." - George W. Bush (White House news release, "Operation Iraqi Freedom", 12 April 2003)

"...freedom is God's gift to every person in every nation." (Remarks by the President on Operation Iraqi Freedom, Ford Community and Performing Arts Center, Dearborn, Michigan, 28 April 2003)

It's all about doing God's will. America is on a mission from God to bring freedom to Iraq and the rest of the world. Bush is answering his true divine "calling" to liberate people who suffer under tyranny. We have gone from an imminent threat of WMD being launched against us, to al-Queda being in league with Hussein, to bestowing God's freedom on the Iraqis. All lies. First Bush affirms that only God can grant freedom. It is God's gift, not a human right. Then Bush says it is America's mission, ordained by God and captained by Bush, to bring freedom to the world. Does anyone outside the White House notice this contradiction? If freedom is a gift of Jesus, then why does George Bush usurp the role of Jesus and force freedom on Iraq?

Actual references to freedom and liberty in the Bible are scarce. The most relevant passage is in the New Testament book of Galatians. "It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery." (Galatians, 5:1, New American Standard version) The King James version of 1622 reads "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Possibly related to John 8:12 "and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." (New American Standard version) Also, 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (New American Standard version) The liberty here is freedom from Mosaic ceremonial law. Paul and Jesus speak of freedom from sin, not political freedom, and certainly not the form of government. Free in Christ Jesus, or enslaved to sin. Freedom under the Gospels, or spiritual slavery under the law of Moses. Freedom from the ritual of circumcision and the Mosaic law (the covenant of bondage). Thus, Bush cannot point to a single line of his Bible and find the word of God supporting his theological casus belli in the Iraq escapade.

For a Christian the gospel of Jesus Christ is the law of liberty from sin and death, while the Mosaic law is that of bondage and death. "But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does." (James, 1:25) This reference to liberty has nothing to do with American democracy.

Also instructive is the Christian order to obey the status quo, as seen in this passage from 1 Peter 2:

2:13 "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,

2:14 "or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right."

2:16 "Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God."

The form of government in the Mediterranean in those days was emperor and governor, not president, congress, and supreme court. Does Bush believe that the best government is the Bible-sanctioned Roman empire?

Freedom in the political context means the right to pursue happiness, as the Founders established in the Constitution. It is the right to act as one sees fit, consistent with responsibility. Freedom is a human idea which takes some effort to attain and keep in the real world of everyday life.

____________________

posted 05-23-2004 10:37 PM            

quote:

---

you didn't answer any of my questions BTW. Would you then stop any of the following belief systems in a public school

1) Nudists
2) Rastafarians
3) Buddhists
4) Hindus
5) Pagans
6) Atheists
7) Agnostics
8) Satanists
9) Zorastrians
10) Muslims

---

No, and nor do others. East Lake High once had a Wicca Club. It was their Right to.

quote:

---

Should each religion or belief be forced to listen to the other?

---

You make it sound like people are preaching in school. That's not the case nor ever was. Most people enjoy hearing wisdoms of other religions.

quote:

---

How do plan on implementing non-secular anarchy, which is what you are proposing?

---

I have no idea what you are saying here.

It is apparent that you are more interested in bashing religions and trying to prove that religion is being thrown down your throat, rather than being concerned of the freedoms of others and of this country. Personally, I can clearly see that you are one more person in the 75 percentile that does not grasp the validity of the Constitution. I hope I do not offend you in saying so, but it is clear we see the Constitution on a differnet level. You can take your Pagan/Peacenik Jesus beliefs and be thankful you have people like me in this country that believes in allowing your religious freedoms because if you let the State make your choices, you wouldn't have one.

posted 05-24-2004 09:09 AM            

You are assuming I "believe" in Mythology the same as you.

Did you not read about my opinion Pagans being as dogmatic as Christians? Fanatic Muslims?

My freedom comes from my willingness to question every "expert", including Right-Wing Religious fanatics and Know-it-all Liberals,not from you saying "All is One" in belief systems, although your questioning of the government is a good step and have that in common. You know damn well that belief is no good unless you put it into action.

What do you do to counter extreme amounts of Linear Thought, War, Programming, and Fanatics trying to ram religious dogma through legislation?

AS I said before, my parents and grandparents taught me to be a good person by NOT being tied to religion, but by caring for sick animals and encouraged to have lots of friends.

BAck then, I was reading Scientific American and playing Bach on the piano, when other kids were praying to The Bible.

Oh, the question was "How do plan on implementing non-secular anarchy, which is what you are proposing?"

What is so difficult to understand? How would you plan on forcing 50% of the population to accept religion in school and public areas, where the Constutition stipulates "Separation" not Homogenization? I know many people who would fight this tooth and nail, so please stick to Sunday school, Sunday Mass, and in your own mind..I'll stick with Einstein and Peter Gabriel and Noble Gas. After all, my writing music and producing videos that question authority helps you have your freedom to worship whatever you want in the privacy of your own home or church.