posted 10-19-2000 03:08 PM            

I first heard about "chemtrails" about eighteen months ago, from an individual on a different preparedness forum. About a year ago, I logged onto one of the chemtrail fora, and followed many links, evaluating both pro-chemtrail and anti-chemtrail research. I have also talked to many people about these phenomena, including meteorologists, commercial airplane pilots/crew, and other aerospace engineers with direct experience with large fixed-wing aircraft. I came to conclusions that I would like to discuss below; but first, I'd like to tell you about me, because it may (or may not) give you some insights as to why I believe what I do.

First, I want to emphasize that I do not speak for, or act as an agent for, my employer, The Boeing Company, in any way, shape, or form. My views are completely my own and do not necessarily reflect the views on anyone else at Boeing. However, with thirty years in the aerospace business (I'm an engineer and a proposal manager), experience as a pilot (small aircraft only) and a habit of reading a lot, I hope that my views have something to back them up. Okay, here's my read on the view that some contrails are more than normal jet engine exhaust:

It's completely bogus. The idea that long-lasting contrails are anything other than normal contrails fails on six counts:

1. The existence of a huge and sinister plot is completely lacking in evidence.

2. The logistics of a massive spraying program would be an order of magnitude higher than the Manhattan Project, the Apollo Moon Landing, or the Vietnam War and simply could not be hidden from any oversight.

3. There is no evidence whatsoever of aircraft modified to perform some of the spraying methodologies that are proposed.

4. Anecdotal "evidence" of any illnesses caused by contrails is not backed up by any reliable data (and is actually contradicted by others).

5. There has never been any evidence of anyone collecting some of this "chemtrail" material in situ, having it tested by any reputable laboratory, and presented to anyone.

6. Every characteristic of chemtrails can be just as logically and rationally explained by normal contrails under normal (but differentiating) atmospheric conditions.

Now let's look at those counts in a bit more detail.

(1) The existence of a huge and sinister plot is completely lacking in evidence. The President; Congress; SecDef; Director of the FAA; the entire command structure of the various armed services; every military man or woman who flies, maintains, fuels, and overhauls aircraft; every commercial pilot and crew member; every meteorologist; and every aerospace engineer who builds, sells, modifies, or maintains the entire fleet of worldwide commercial aircraft comprise a group of about half a million people. Every one of them would have to be in on the plot. And in the X number of years that this "chemtrail" stuff has been going on, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM has come out and said anything about it! What is the chance of a plot that requires the help of a half-million people being secret for more than six milliseconds? Zero.

As a matter of fact, there is no evidence of any sort of plot of any kind by the Bilderbergers, Illuminati, International Zionists, CFR, NWO, the Baptist Church, or anyone else.

Is our government corrupt and immoral? I believe so. Is the UN controlled by a bunch of socialist third-world losers with their hands out for the US to feed them and fight their wars for them? I think so, too. But that does NOT mean that they are heading a huge, secret, centuries-old plot to have the Black Helicopters Manned By Crack Bolivian Troops In Blue Berets Haul Us Off To The Secret Concentration Camps In Roachspit, Texas Where We Will Be Forced To Knit UN Flags And Eat Ebola-Burgers. It just means that they're all crooks. So what else is new?

(2) The logistics of a massive spraying program. In order to have the massive worldwide spraying that the chemtrail-protagonists talk about would require a hundred thousand aircraft, flying 24/7 shifts, with the additional support infrastructure, a bazillion pilots and ground crew, and the combined efforts of every employee at Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, and even those manufacturers of flying junk, Airbus Industrie. It isn't there.

(3) There is no evidence whatsoever of aircraft modified to perform some of the spraying methodologies that are proposed. The only things I have ever seen on an aircraft that shoot things out (besides the engine exhaust) is the toilet and the fuel dump orifices, often at the wing tip. If the aircraft are squirting chemicals out of the fuel dump nozzles, what's in the fuel tanks? Poisonous chemicals? Huh-uh. (One exception to this is a military version of a civilian aircraft called TACAMO, a Navy variant of the AWACS aircraft. It has these oddball nozzles near the base of the wings. But they're still fuel-dump nozzles; they've merely been moved inboard because the TACAMO has reconnaissance pods at the wingtips, and they don't want to jettison JP-5 over the million-dollar electronics.

Bear in mind that you don't just strap in a couple of big tanks and poke the nozzles out through the aircraft fuselage. There are VERY stringent engineering details to be worked out regarding structural integrity, movable center of gravity, environmental protection for the crew and poison-loaders, etc. Almost all major mods to an aircraft are done under subsequent contract to the original builder. Since no one at Boeing knows anything about such mods (and I've asked around) this means it either wasn't done, or everyone else (but me) in the company is in on the secret. Huh-uh.

(4) Anecdotal "evidence" of any illnesses caused by contrails is not backed up. One of the hypotheses of "chemtrails" is that they're toxic/infectious/bad juju. Various people report that they came down with flu-like symptoms after a heavy "spray day". As someone who does a lot of travel (domestic and international), I've flown out of a lot of airports and through a lot of other aircraft's contrails over the past five years.

If the poison-chemtrail hypothesis had any merit, there would be tons of sick passengers crawling off the 0900 shuttle to LAX; I've never seen 'em, nor has anyone I've talked with. If there is some weird residue in the contrails other than water with traces of JP-5, you'd see aircraft taxiing into the concourse with some sort of crud over the leading edges. I've never seen any of that, nor has anyone I've talked with.

One possible explanation for those flu-like symptoms? Flu. There's tons of it going around, and it's been that way since 1918.

(5) There has never been any evidence of anyone collecting some of this "chemtrail" material in situ, having it tested by any reputable laboratory, and presented to anyone. With all the interest in this crud, why hasn't anyone ever flown up to a "chemtrail", sampled some of the stuff, and brought it back to a reputable lab for test and reported on it? One site purporting to talk about a laboratory testing a sample told how some individual scraped "something" off the side of a house, and sent it to one of the chemtrail protagonists. This individual sent it to a laboratory where he says they reported it had some bacteria in it. But then the individual says the lab "changed its mind" and said there was nothing wrong. Not only that, but our friend said he would not tell us the name of either the lab or the investigator because of ... of... something or other. That sure raises a credibility issue to me! Another researcher says he has the information, but he wants to be "compensated" for all the work he's put in before he tells us his tale. Puh-leez!

If there were just one case of someone with any credibility collecting some of this junk before it falls to the earth and gets worms on it, then sends it to a lab where objective individuals can review it under open conditions and publish their findings, that might lend a bit more credence to the whole chemtrail business. I'm waiting, but I don't think I'll skip dinner.

(6) Every characteristic of chemtrails can be just as logically and rationally explained by normal contrails under normal (but differentiating) atmospheric conditions.

Conclusion

So why the big deal with "Chemtrails"? I think there're several excellent reasons.

1. Conspiracies are fun! If you think you know what they're REALLY doing, maybe it makes you feel more powerful and on the "inside". Only the "sheeple" believe all the government lies, where WE know better. You remember the sheeple, of course -- they were those poor fools who believed that Y2K was going to be, at worse, a bump in the road. Shows how dumb they were, right?

2. Most chemtrail conspiracy theorists simply don't know much about things that would help them to disbelieve such hypotheses: stuff like engineering, meteorology, government procurement, military force structure, etc. But most importantly, the most of these individuals simply don't understand how scientific investigation and research works. They confuse opinion with facts, equate hypotheses with theories, do not reason logically, engage in ad hominem arguments, cannot or will not read peer-reviewed journals --- the list goes on and on.

Maybe I shouldn't get so exercised about the whole chemtrail business. In a way, it's like the belief in the Easter Bunny -- it keeps the folks happy; and as long as they don't try to shoot down a "chemtrail" plane, or assassinate or otherwise harass people who disagree with them, they're harmless.

But there are so many important things in the world that I consider a real priority -- Government intrusion into our lives, a nutburg foreign and domestic policy, the chance that a natural disaster may justify my last years' Y2K preps -- that I hate to think that well-meaning but naive people on these and other fora are wasting their time on what is no more than a silly and cruel hoax.

posted 11-30-2000 07:19 PM               

quote:

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1. The existence of a huge and sinister plot is completely lacking in evidence.

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I would propose a possible scenario in which there is neither a huge, nor sinister plot, in which Chemtrails represent a real and significant part of a puzzle.
The all-pervasive conspiracy from the privates to the president does not exist. There is no need for this in my scenario. It is widely recognized by the military and intelligence communities that biological weapons are the great new emerging threat. Enough biological weapons have been created by world militaries to kill everyone on the world dozens of times over and even more significantly, they are easily made by would be terrorists. What could be done to avert a biological holocaust? A vaccine. But it how could it be accomplished without raising the panic flag in society? Secretly. Contract the best bioengineering companies to develop a vaccine and make it distributable in aerosol form. Maxygen Laboratories are developing an aerosol vaccine for SPAWAR. Even if this is for an inhaler type application, the technology exists. Where does the funding come from? While the US is openly spending multi-millions on biological defense, the bulk of it may come from those in the upper eschelons wealth. They would think nothing of spending several fortunes to protect themselves and their loved-ones, as well as their elite way of life.

quote:

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1a. Too many people involved for this to be kept secret.

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Who knows about the operation? As few people as possible. And of course this operation would need to be a secret operation of the highest order. No need for the executive branch to be involved. The FAA has no need to know. The idea that meteorologists would be let in on the secret is certainly laughable. Yes, the Secretary of Defense would probably know, but not every person down the entire command structure. Just a few in charge. The entire continental U.S. could probably be serviced with a dozen bases. Only a minute fraction of a base would be involved with direct support requiring knowledge of the operation. This might compromise a group of a few hundred people, possibly less than a thousand, all strictly sworn to secrecy in interest of national security and domestic calm.

quote:

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2. The logistics of a massive spraying program...

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A hundred thousand aircraft and a bazillion pilots aren’t needed. Just enough to do the job. A half dozen planes can cover a lot of airspace.

quote:

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3. There is no evidence whatsoever of aircraft modified to perform some of the spraying methodologies that are proposed.

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The MASS (Modular Aerial Spray System), while admittedly not suitable for jet craft, shows that is possible to retrofit planes with Spray Systems and that intelligent minds have been working on these types of issues for years. As indicated in the “Why a Hoax” document, “Almost all major mods” are done by original builder. Perhaps this mod is done somewhere else, or it is too great a secret for your friends to share. If you are trying to tell me that you are in on every secret that anybody knows at Boeing, then I think somebody’s gonna lose their security clearance.

quote:

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4. Anecdotal "evidence" of any illnesses caused by contrails is not backed up.

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There is a lot of anecdotal evidence concerning illness and it is virtually impossible to correlate it to Chemtrails. Passenger flights would not be involved with this operation. There is no reason why passengers on such flights would experience a mega-dose of the spray. The air is filtered and any sickness reaction from flying coincidental to the operation would be delayed and subject to individual reactions.

quote:

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5. There has never been any evidence of anyone collecting some of this "chemtrail" material in situ, having it tested by any reputable laboratory, and presented to anyone.

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True. Although the “brown goo” material which has been dropped from low flying planes has been sampled and been found to contain bioengineered stuff by the the Washington State Department of Heath and AmTest Laboratories (Be sure to read the Unsolved Mysteries Transcript), no Chemtrail, which is an entirely different matter, has been sampled. When I win the lottery, or something similar, I will contract this to be done myself.

quote:

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6. Every characteristic of chemtrails can be just as logically and rationally explained by normal contrails under normal (but differentiating) atmospheric conditions.

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posted 12-01-2000 06:15 PM               

Or did I miss something?

Thermit:
"True. Although the “brown goo” material which has been dropped from low flying planes has been sampled and been found to contain bioengineered stuff by the the Washington State Department of Heath and AmTest Laboratories (Be sure to read the Unsolved Mysteries Transcript), no Chemtrail, which is an entirely different matter, has been sampled. When I win the lottery, or something similar, I will contract this to be done myself."

posted 12-11-2000 05:34 PM               

These show the paths that commercial flights take and at what altitudes or levels. Remembering that the contrails of aircraft at different levels on two crossing airways would make a grid pattern to any observer not directly under the intersection, perhaps this explains your accute observations?

The reason that they vary is that specific atmospheric conditions are needed for contrails to form. They may only form at certain levels, or perhaps all through the upper atmosphere.

Thermit you have your scale completely wrong. This would be a massive undertaking. We're not talking about biological agents here that spread themselves using their hosts, but chemicals. The logistics to spray a large section of the population of your country would be astronomical.

posted 12-11-2000 05:51 PM               

quote:

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You guys that are suspiscious of grids, or varying altitudes of traffic in your area, have you even looked at an IFR chart (if you don't know what one is, then you haven't looked or haven't understood) of your area?

The reason that they vary is that specific atmospheric conditions are needed for contrails to form. They may only form at certain levels, or perhaps all through the upper atmosphere.

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Random, I use Flight Explorer to track the normal traffic in my area. The grid in the photo is very unusual based on the traffic in my area. Flights at this altitude are sporadic, believe me I know, I sometimes have to spend two hours just to see a couple of passenger flights fly over at 37,000 ft. So, yes, in fact, this grid was very unusual.

I'm using FE in conjunction with atmospheric soundings from my area. Based on my research and information I've collected from atmospheric scientists, I believe I now, have a decent understanding of the factors involved. I'm building a database of identified planes, with their altitudes and amount of trail persistence. So far, there is definately an anomaly, however admittedly many people call normal contrails Chemtrails. I'm willing to see where the facts lead.

Please read my Flight Explorer Report in the Chemtrail and Related Forum and see what you think with what I've found so far.

posted 12-12-2000 12:55 PM               

There are many non-scheduled flights around, from Learjet-size corporate transport to C-17 Globemasters. You will not find the flight paths and times of these published even in your country!

In peacetime military aircraft won't avoid the contrail belt, and they often fly much higher than civilian flights, making an unusual pattern if the atmosphere has the right conditiond. Other times you will not see them, as they will have no contrail.

What makes you think that a small number of aircraft could possibly drop enough chemical aerosol to do any measurable damage to any significant proportion of the US population? Have you made any estimate? If so I'd like to see it, along with your assumptions as to damaging dose, population densities, width of coverage of a single pass, the amount of fuel/poison mix an aircraft can hold etc. I think you would be surprised!

posted 12-12-2000 04:00 PM               

First of all, your quotes "measurable damage" and "poison mix" are not correct categorizations of my opinion about what Chemtrail are about. From these quotes, I can tell that you haven't actually even read this thread, as I clearly explained my theory. Please read the full thread.

Flight Explorer tracks IFR flights in psuedo-realtime. Military flights are filtered out. The data comes from an FAA computer. You can read about the software here. I think FE is much better than any chart could be, but I would be glad to take a look at anything you send if you have e-versions you can email.

As to what I meant by "unusual". I simply mean it isn't typical. The three parallel trails run east-west, virtually all of the commercial traffic in that altitude range, runs north-south, to or from Mexico. It would be foolish to think this is anything other than a military trail formation. I've visually tracked dozens of FE-identifiable commercial flights in the "contrail belt". Never have they been that close at that altitude. None of them have left trails that persisted for over two minutes. Maybe there is a little something extra added to the mix on some of these military flights that causes them to be able to leave trails that persist for hours.

Hey I don't blame you for being skeptical, I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard about it too.

LTC8K6, I don't see most of the traffic going to IAH. I do see and hear dozens of low-level flights right over the house on their way to landing at HOU. When I turn on my 25,000+ altitude filter on FE, it more than decimates the flights shown. Makes it very easy to definitively identify normal traffic.

posted 12-12-2000 04:18 PM               

However since vaccines are biologically inactive, and I would assume there is a great risk if you make a live, viable organism carry a vaccine, my case stands. It would need a vast infrastructure to distribute. In fact I will be posting a thread soon, when I can get my head round my meteorology (had the exam last week, alread forgetting it!) suggesting that any spraying in the upper atmosphere would be totally ineffective.

posted 12-12-2000 05:18 PM               

Given the goal of rendering biological weapons useless and given a concerted effort to achieve that goal, there is a need to universally, across the population, "treat" everybody without it generally being known. The common factor everybody breathes the air. So it must be via the air. The obvious choice for distribution is aircraft. The miltary has pilots and jets. So, in a hypothetical, "do or die", they will find a way to make it work no matter what the cost.

But could it really work? There are issues of eventual dilution given non low-level application. However, this could work in their favor. This is somewhat experimental, and people have different sensitivities, so a very weak application at ground level would be highly desired. This would allow the body to quietly get used to antibodies at a very very low concentration. This keeps adverse reactions to a minimum, the downside is it would take a long time to achieve immunity at this rate. That winds up working in their favor too, as new people are born each day which need to be treated too. Many have cited the large amount of "solution" that would need to be carried. Perhaps the solution is very concentrated in the onboard holding tanks. This would be more practical, allowing a supply to last longer, as it is very concentrated to begin with.

Granted it will take some time for particles to reach the ground, my estimates, based on the chart, range from 15 hours to several days. Is this a problem? Not really, the "solution" doesn't get stale. It doesn't matter what day it was sprayed on, as long as some eventually reaches the target.

Full Sized Graph and Info

posted 12-16-2000 07:48 AM               

Why not factor in money? The money would be of the order US$500 trillion or more for initial application. Coming from a country with an annual government budget of the order US$600 bn, this looks kind of a lot. Even Bill Gates might balk.

How many aircraft would it take to distribute 50 million tonnes of a product, after diluting it in Jet A? 10:1 dilution by weight (conservative), that's 500 million tonnes. Few aircraft have payload greater than 50 tonnes. 10 million flights?

posted 12-28-2000 08:22 PM            

Those of you who are here to "diffuse" the situation and distract will just have to convince the rest of us that the laws of physics are somehow "suspended", arbitrarily, for what you might call "normal commercial traffic".

Also -- 600 million dollars is a drop in the bucket when the US Black Budget alone is fast approaching 10 billion -- all you need is a fast-track rationale, and some "international participation" at that point. The materiel and "delivery system" is practically a done deal.

ONE REASON WHY I BELIEVE DUNCAN KUNZ IS A HOAX:
Let's just say he admits to working for a major airline, then brazenly lies (in print, on the internet, essentially in public for all the world to see) about a simple fact of aircraft cabin filtration -- and then hopes that no one will notice this "omission".

The rest of the "debunking" crew has similar credibility problems, maybe worse.

posted 12-28-2000 09:13 PM            

(even assuming that randoms 'calculations' are correct)

In case you haven't been paying attention to events in the past few decades, covert operations and operatives do not need to rely on a federal budget.

[note: Senators Heinz (PA) and Tower (TX) were killed in seperate private plane crashes just one day apart, both were members of the Iran/contra senate subcommittee holding hearings during that time.]

posted 12-29-2000 09:13 AM            

Do you mean a rethink?

You make a wild assumption regarding cost, viz: 'considering the "saturant" was not overtly expensive'. Remember that probably the most expensive commodity in this whole thing would be the secrecy necessary to implement it, and this cost would certainly be reflected in the cost of teh chemicals along with every other cost. You must also factor in the purported 'fact' that many areas are being subject to repeated day-after-day spraying, so the costs must be multiplied many times.

posted 12-29-2000 05:45 PM               

I was making rough assumptions on distribution of a cheap, simple chemical compound (not an expensive mix of chemicals/bioactive ingredients you lot suggest). I was assuming it would remain below 26 000 ft (the tropopause varies between about 25 000 and 55 000 feet).

Even then my figure quoted on the thread 'Chemical rain?' was US$5,000 billion(yes, US$5 trillion , about 8 times my country's government's annual budget, and we're the 4th largest economy in the world) for the chemicals in the original distribution. As stated above this would require more than 10 million sorties by large aircraft.

If you doubt my estimates, then tell me why. If not, then tell me where the money comes from and how the aircraft manage the job.

posted 12-29-2000 09:45 PM            

What could $100 MILLION (US) per day purchase over American skies?

posted 12-29-2000 09:55 PM               

If you have proof of what you say drop in and share it with us. If not, your efforts are better spent swarming with your fellow fools on the carnicom board.

posted 12-29-2000 10:12 PM            

Fools, on the other hand, keep missing the obvious until they eventually (generally, sooner than later) become extinct.

FYI, the $100,000,000 per day figure is not mine, but published research. (Just go through a transcript of the Congressional Budget, add up the total budget, subtract all budget items for which the destination of funding is "known" AND fully listed -- and you'll have a rather large remainder, the "black budget", made all the more obvious by the think, black lines deliberately crossed through it's type in all public appropriations documents.]